I've come to two conclusions lately as someone who doesn't follow wrestling very closely anymore but checks in from time to time. 



1. The level of quality of women's wrestling in WWE has at the very least plateaued but more likely has started to decline from where it was in the last half of the 2010's. Recently there been quite a few matches that have been outright bad with sloppy wrestling and uninterested crowds.

I mean just look at stuff like this

  

Or this 

Or  even this

twitter.com/ivyIegion/status/1730806914252980642

 2. People seem to be reluctant to point out bad wrestling when it comes to women, and there seems to be tendency to look past bad wrestling and praise the most minor of improvements in a way that seems very patronizing to me. Some of the ways inwhch women are praised especially by diva Stans , comes off as being very similar to how WWE tried to pass off the likesof Candice Michelle and Kelly Kelly as being top talents who were constantly improving. 

I don't know I think if we want women's wrestling to be treated equally as mens then we shouldn't be afraid to hardly critique it either. Instead of acting like everything is great.  

I've mentioned this in the past. And I have been shot down because you're not allowed to criticise women's wrestling.

Before, I continue. There are some exceptional women out there who routinely steal the show, and there has been for a long time. And there is some real stars with real talent coming through NXT women's division.

It's partly part of a larger problem where style takes precedence over doing the fundamentals well and people, both men and women take risks they aren't experienced enough to do well or have the physicality to perform safely. And you see this often with the women's matches. Everyone is trying to fly without wings and it doesn't always work. There's a lot of lead in some of those asses, and for the life of me, some of them are hell bent on testing out their ability to fly.

Simply, I believe in putting your best foot forward. Maxine should never work a match... but Ripley, Io, Asuka, the other one, Tiff, Roxy, even Green should be wrestling ever single week. These girls are good, very good.

Feb 7, 2024 0:29:09 GMT NATH45 said:

I've mentioned this in the past. And I have been shot down because you're not allowed to criticise women's wrestling.

Before, I continue. There are some exceptional women out there who routinely steal the show, and there has been for a long time. And there is some real stars with real talent coming through NXT women's division.

It's partly part of a larger problem where style takes precedence over doing the fundamentals well and people, both men and women take risks they aren't experienced enough to do well or have the physicality to perform safely. And you see this often with the women's matches. Everyone is trying to fly without wings and it doesn't always work. There's a lot of lead in some of those asses, and for the life of me, some of them are hell bent on testing out their ability to fly.

Simply, I believe in putting your best foot forward. Maxine should never work a match... but Ripley, Io, Asuka, the other one, Tiff, Roxy, even Green should be wrestling ever single week. These girls are good, very good.

Maxine wrestling matches currently is equivalent to the likes of Christy Hemme and Candice Michelle trying to wrestle without getting adequate training.

The names you mentioned are generally good ( I disagree with Chelsea she''s  pretty bad in ring) . But also I think a bunch of them have lost a step. Asuka isn't the guarantee for producing a good match like she use to be, Charlotte is vernally very inconsistent, Kairi seems lost in the ring every now and then. Even Io isn't as good as she was a few years ago. Part of the problem is thew NXT era that followed the 4hw and Asuka has largely flopped on the main roster outside of a few names. So you're dealing with aging older stars and talents who are either super green or not that good in the first place, or at least not that good anymore.   


  

I don't know if there's been a recent decline in women's wrestling as much as there have always been different calibers of talent in the women's division, just the same as men.

I already said my piece about Becky Lynch in the Raw thread but she's very weak in the ring relative to her stature as a top star. Not the most athletic, weak moveset, hardly any great matches to her name.

Asuka was amazing in NXT, a breath of fresh air, but for the majority of her main roster run she's been completely unremarkable. I can't put my finger on why. Did she tone down her style? Did she lose a step? Did she simply stand out less when other female talent entered the main roster?

Shayne Baeszler has a good gimmick and has the look of a "fuck with me and I'll break every bone in your body" MMA fighter, like a female Brock Lesnar, but she doesn't have the chops in the ring.

Nia Jax is obviously terrible, she's pushed beyond her ability even more than Becky Lynch.

Charlotte Flair is the female Randy Orton in that she's booked very strongly, looks like a Greek god/goddess and has great execution, but her matches just aren't very interesting.

In fact there aren't many female wrestlers I go out of my way to watch. Rhea Ripley, Iyo Sky, that's about it.

Maybe it was just timing they managed to have so many talented women at once to build the divisions around. Seem to be reason to believe the prospective # of women for the business is but a fraction of the men so you're just not gonna have that constant influx of talent to choose from. The era of the HW was the past decade. In terms of "divas" that's a lifetime a whole generation of talent. All this attention I've been paying to wrestling shows that the guys I stopped paying attention to are still going only now they're the "old guard" which seems scary.

Longevity isn't always a good thing at this level, considering the job is literally 24/7 and 5 nights a week.

While reps are important in improving for inexperienced talent, eventually fast forwarding 10 or 15 years and each of those bumps has added up.

You take Seth Rollins, who Drew was mocking this past week for the number of injuries this guy is carrying. Seth walks like an old man after 13 or 14 years in the WWE. Consider how banged up Austin, Angle, Punk, Cena, Undertaker, Flair, Hogan were... the list could go on and on.

The point is, the business is tough. And women's wrestling has accelerated so quickly over the last 10 years that the work rate is higher, faster and more physical than at any other point. Also, gravity is a bitch and when you're 150lb, gravity is going to be a massive bitch.

So before someone gets up in arms, go hit a flat back bump on the lawn and tell me that shit didn't hurt.

Considering how good and how risky some of these girls have gotten, and considering what a guy like Seth Rollins feels like in 2024, I can only imagine the pain a lot of these women are in considering the size and weight difference. That wear and tear would be having a significant impact on many of the top girls in WWE.

I think this thread is spot on.

Women’s wrestling can’t be criticized to the same degree without the thought police attacking folks.

I’ll double down on the criticism: Women’s wrestling has always been inferior, from an in-ring component, to men’s wrestling in North America.

Feb 7, 2024 3:51:00 GMT KJ said:

I think this thread is spot on.

Women’s wrestling can’t be criticized to the same degree without the thought police attacking folks.

I’ll double down on the criticism: Women’s wrestling has always been inferior, from an in-ring component, to men’s wrestling in North America.

I mean I thin there are explanations for this. Moolah being one of the biggest trainers for women in the 70-80's when she wasn't very good to start with , and the lack of any real serious women's wrestling scene in the 1990's in the US really held women back . You only really saw things start to improve with advent of women only promotions like Shimmer.

I think it's a little disappointing however that there hasn't been more improvement in recent years given that they're getting much more in ring time than they use to.


There is still a far bigger gap between say Japanese Female wrestler and their Western counterparts. Then the male ajpnese talents and their western counterparts. You see it with how much western women wrestlers improve by doing stints in Japan.   

pwcom.proboards.com/thread/5826/criticise-women-wrestling

Again, I don't think anybody is stopping you. The only pushback you may receive is if you make a bad generalisation and try to paint every woman with the same brush.

Feb 7, 2024 0:54:52 GMT Emperor said:

Charlotte Flair is the female Randy Orton in that she's booked very strongly, looks like a Greek god/goddess and has great execution, but her matches just aren't very interesting.

I've been bringing his name up a lot lately, but she reminds me more of Shinsuke Nakamura in the way that her standard match can be quite underwhelming but then she'll have a MOTY calibre performance. Even in the same match, it can start off plodding and sloppy but then organically build into an intense, emotional and physical spectacle - which stands out from the more robotic 'epics' her male counter-parts put on. Her match against Becky Lynch at Survivor Series and the Mania match with Rhea come straight to mind.

We all need some Meiko Satomura in our lives.

I have been critical of female wrestlers just as I would their male counterparts. I think we've seen a lot of this kind of general sloppiness when we had Divas over wrestlers, but for awhile it was glorious. I think a lot of the responsibility has to be put on The Powers that Be calling up women who are not ready yet. Put them in stable as a valet, send them back down or have them pull double duty in NXT, but do something because I agree there's quantity, but not necessarily quality and that could make all the strides they've made forward go the opposite way.

Weirdest thing with Shayna is she is very, very well versed in catch wrestling. So she could legit wrestle circles around people. But for some reason when it slows down to all predetermined, slower spots she like cannot adjust.  Let her call and do safe shoot moves and she looks amazing.

Meiko is a bully.  After this spot she berates the girl while she bleeds.



Full doc is here:

I think much of it has to do with the timing. The end of the 2010's was huge for women's wrestling in general because it being taken seriously and promoted properly was something fresh. Investment from the audience in it was 100% and you saw that in things like Evolution and the first women's WrestleMania main event. Over time, it has become normal and, as such, the booking has to be solid as well as the in-ring stuff. Let's not forget, the Mania' main event between Becky/Ronda/Charlotte was decent, not spectacular and had a pretty dodgy ending, but it is still remembered rightfully as an iconic moment.

I also think that there are a lot of wrestlers at different ends of the scale. On it's own, the current crop of wrestlers (and when Sasha Banks was there) is the best WWE has ever had. Bianca, Becky, Charlotte, Bayley, Sky, Asuka, Kairi and others are excellent. Roxanne is already very good. Tiffany Stratton is so improved, as is Cora Jade. Not to mention wrestlers like Candice, Indi, Piper, Nattie etc who are all good or very good. I don't think there are any more botches or mistakes than usual, just like there are plenty in the men's side too.

As for Maxxine, she clearly isn't ready, but WWE have ALWAYS put wrestlers into spots too early, rightly or wrongly. They did it in the Divas era and they've done it consistently ever since. It shouldn't take away from anything else.

Maxxine didn't get enough time in NXT, feel like she's not a good pick here. She needed much more seasoning in NXT. Same with B-FAB.

Seriously give NXT today a shot dex02. The women are booked very strong with 2-3 matches weekly with them. They're missing the JOSHI element but if Satomura comes back or Guilia signs, they may even get that. There's tons of different styles, surely there will be 1-2 that you'll like from that group.

Sex is nice and all, your team winning a championship is an amazing buzz, but as an internet forum poster is there any better feeling than an old thread getting linked and in it you are reading someone for utter filth?

Feb 7, 2024 4:24:15 GMT Big Pete said:

Feb 7, 2024 0:54:52 GMT Emperor said:

Charlotte Flair is the female Randy Orton in that she's booked very strongly, looks like a Greek god/goddess and has great execution, but her matches just aren't very interesting.

I've been bringing his name up a lot lately, but she reminds me more of Shinsuke Nakamura in the way that her standard match can be quite underwhelming but then she'll have a MOTY calibre performance. Even in the same match, it can start off plodding and sloppy but then organically build into an intense, emotional and physical spectacle - which stands out from the more robotic 'epics' her male counter-parts put on. Her match against Becky Lynch at Survivor Series and the Mania match with Rhea come straight to mind.

Agree completely.  I do not dig Flair, but every now and then she bangs out a mindblowing match.  

Some parts of the women’s wrestling fandom is weird as hell. Will see people RPing as their favourite wrestler on twitter and get in feuds with another RP accounts or advertise NSFW Roleplay. Sure whatever floats your but but they also almost K-pop fan psychotic if someone criticises their favourite and hate on other wrestlers as if they are serial killers or something. That plus the fake accounts that are always spamming and scamming.

I’d love to see a gendered brand split for those fully invested and let stories be fleshed out more. Hard to get invested when the in-ring work by some women’s wrestlers isn’t good + they aren’t getting time to develop a storyline for you to care in the first place.

Also doesn’t help in the dominant champion era as Emperor puts it, the women’s tag titles seems to be the only championship getting the potato treatment.

There doesn't seem to be the depth in the storytelling within the women's division as there is in the men's in WWE.

And even in terms of length and build, Damage Control's implosion feels like it started a month ago, despite being a stable for 18 months.

And I'd suspect when that angle ends at Wrestlemania, Bayley will move onto the next challenger and the Japanese girls will be completing some random side quest like the last 2 years hasn't matter.

Compare that to the men, every major player on both rosters works with some degree of motive or rhyme or reason or its a build upon one angle after the other. The women's angles seem to start. Then stop. Then a new angle starts. Then stops..

So, you can understand why no one really cares when a real emotion connection hasn't been made with the audience.

I have a similar impression of Damage Ctrl, but when you map it all out, there's an argument to be made that they're one of the better ongoing storylines in the company.



I think my issue is that I don't feel any sympathy for Bayley. If anything, I'm happy to see her usurped out of the group after what she did to Kairi and feel she's been given her just desserts. As it stands, the storyline calls for Iyo Sky and co. to put her on the shelf and send Dakota on a revenge mission.

The other issue is that we don't know enough about Iyo, Asuka and Kairi. I think more needs to be done to showcase them, their bond, their motivations and what makes them the best. If you can't find a satisfying way to showcase that and develop it, then move on from it.

I know how...

Female Shield.

The blueprint for those early Shield matches was simply : everyone got their shit in, they hit hard, and fast - take no prisoners type stuff - and each person's weakness was covered by the other one's strengths.

Can you imagine if someone said " ok, Damage Control.. you've got 7 minutes to fuck them up "

Maxxine Dupri is beginning to lose the crowd, this was a recent live event. She should be in NXT and getting more seasoning and not be thrown out there to the wolves, I feel bad for her.

I feel badly for her. They've set her up for failure.

As a manager, yes. As a wrestler, no.

Not everyone needs to wrestle.

That's amazing the women got her back. Raquel, Chelsea Green mentioned some kind stuff as well among others.

Z, Shayna and Mia Yim I seen talking about this and all are disgusted. Roster will circle wagons about this shit. Love her or hate her the roster clearly supports Dupri.

Eh, I feel bad for her and it's really the fault of WWE for putting her in that position. I do wish that hadn't happened

but I don't agree with wrestlers blaming the fans. I haven't seen the match in question but assuming it was that bad then why is she in that position? Is there not a Center where she can work on her Performance in between TV shows? Why did WWE not send her there instead?

If I went to a burger place (so cheaper than the steakhouse prices that might be WWE PPV's) I know I'm not getting a filet mignon but I'm not expecting to get a slab of meat burned on the outside and frozen raw on the inside. Yes, the chef needs practice but when one is *that* new it shouldn't be done with paying customers, it should be done away from public view.

having said that, I can't imagine a scenario where I would boo a wrestler at a house show match, but I can't imagine a match so terrible it would cause multiple people to boo the wrestler on her way out so the whole thing is bizarre to me.

lastly, am not a proponent of the "well you haven't done it so you can never criticize or critique me ever ever" argument. i can assure you people have thoughts on how i do my job even though they also have never done it

To stimulate the discussion, is this an example of that toxic positivity that dex02 was talking about?

Maxine is clearly not good at wrestling (potential not yet anyway) and she is being defended because she's trying hard and is a lovely person.

It's a failing on WWE's behalf not to ensure she is competent in the ring, for 3 reasons.

Number one being safety. Her own and the people she's working with. The second being her own well being. You don't want to disencourage someone with a lot of potential to be a great on screen personality into leaving the business because of some potentially bad experiences. She gets beat up or the wear and tear adds up from bad form and on top of that (a segue) copping negative feedback from the audience. People pay to see a live show, a good one usually. This is reason number 3. As many have said, if you pay for a ticket you have the right to boo and cheer who you want. Imagine paying to see a band and the drummer doesn't know how to drum. You'd be annoyed. And rightfully so.

If reps are important, then send her to the PC every day until she can work. She can wrestle 10 matches a day there with the best coaches in the world, and when she's TV ready... NXT. They've got the best educational facilities in wrestling and it blows my mind they aren't utilising it.

Frankly, they are treated far better than people treated any girl 25 years ago. I remember people heckling girls like Becky or Mercedes at small shows for the duration of the match and throwing shit at them on the way out.

And like, most guys that worked philly back then got merciless taunted if they made any tiny mistake. And well, guys like Joe used to get you fat fuck chants.

Wrestling is not for everyone and the fans will be assholes at times. Part of the gig.  At least fans rushing the ring seems to have toned down in the past 25 years.  Few shows I worked we had to pull people away that tried to get in the ring from the crowd.  Beer prices at indy shows rising did wonders there.  As did more and more just smoking up before shows so they are chill.

I think in Maxxine's case, she has to show WWE that she's more than just a pretty valet if she wants to keep her job or show she deserves more TV time so she's trying to learn on the run without the performance center which is insanely difficult and something not many of the women on the current roster have. She came in the same time to the company IIRC with Tiffany Stratton but one got to bake in the oven, the other was taken out too early and it's night/day. I said it at the time when she called up to replace LA Knight as the MMM manager that she needed more time in NXT, she had like 2 matches on TV IIRC! 

I am not sure being a valet is good enough to keep your paychecks going so I get why her and BFAB are trying to show versatility. If you can't be adequate in the ring while as a valet, WWE will try and find someone else who can.

As a sports fan, I get it. You get angry and boo for poor performance but IDK I think it's tough to have as much venom as the guy did that was being video taped. I had 50 pages of choice words cursing out a bunch of NY Jet players, wanting heads to roll and demanding players be benched. Maybe it's because I am older or just completely ruined by the teams I root for, but I just don't have that same type of venom anymore. It's out of my control, out of my hands, there's no reason to get this nasty.

The "YOU SUCK" is whatever but the "DONT COME BACK! DONT COME BACK!" is pretty lame. Dude woke up on the wrong side of the bed to really go out of his way to say that to the girl. I'm on the side that fans should not be kicked out for being offensive which is why I roll my eye whenever LeBron or Russell Westbrook get fans kicked out for yelling gestures at them but IDK you as a fan need to have a heart to heart with yourself and ask is it really worth trashing on someone in person you've never met because they didn't perform well for a few minutes?

It's like you know you aren't getting the next 5 star masterpiece so why even get angry? Honestly, you might as well hit the restroom or go for food/drinks at that point as a fan if you truly detest her in the ring over what he did.

Feb 29, 2024 2:13:57 GMT NATH45 said:

To stimulate the discussion, is this an example of that toxic positivity that dex02 was talking about?

Maxine is clearly not good at wrestling (potential not yet anyway) and she is being defended because she's trying hard and is a lovely person.

It's a failing on WWE's behalf not to ensure she is competent in the ring, for 3 reasons.

Number one being safety. Her own and the people she's working with. The second being her own well being. You don't want to disencourage someone with a lot of potential to be a great on screen personality into leaving the business because of some potentially bad experiences. She gets beat up or the wear and tear adds up from bad form and on top of that (a segue) copping negative feedback from the audience. People pay to see a live show, a good one usually. This is reason number 3. As many have said, if you pay for a ticket you have the right to boo and cheer who you want. Imagine paying to see a band and the drummer doesn't know how to drum. You'd be annoyed. And rightfully so.

If reps are important, then send her to the PC every day until she can work. She can wrestle 10 matches a day there with the best coaches in the world, and when she's TV ready... NXT. They've got the best educational facilities in wrestling and it blows my mind they aren't utilising it.

That's exactly why I brought this thread up. But I do think it's good that her coworkers got her back as opposed to her getting clowned or getting shaded by them, which would be the worst scenario possible. It's expected and honestly awesome the roster is full of tight knit ladies where as you had toxicity running rampant last year in AEW's division at one point. 

I think in a post Hana Kimura world, people just have to toe the line when it comes to bullying a early to mid 20's women's wrestler, fair or unfair. It's always going to be the standard.