Incredibly sad to look at that picture and realize Bret is the only one still alive.

I had a hard time ranking The Hart Foundation , I loved Bret and all of the members and there is no doubt that the heel in America , face elsewhere gimmick was fucking incredible and they have some brilliant moments - but I'm so foggy on some of the timeline and really need to go back and watch again. Like in my mind for whatever reason they had a much longer run , I knew deep down they didn't but seeing that they were only around for like 8 months still shocks me - also a reason why I had to dock them a few spots.

Also it would have been great if Pillman would have even been a shell of his former self. Sucks he couldn't live up to the potential and add something more to the group than he was capable of at the time.

Overall they made a mark , had the best feud of 1997 and one of , if not THE greatest clusterfuck tag match of all time. I'd just have them more in the 5-7 range despite loving them.

Hart over DX? Suck it Shawn.

Also could that pic be more 90s? Jorts and a fanny pack.

I know where UT is coming from, it felt like the Hart Foundation existed a lot longer than they actually did. All these characters had relationships well before 1997 and since we had history with all these characters and were so emotionally invested, when they came back like jilted ex's on the fans and started to put a mirror infront of us, it made the relationship that more intense. With certain stables, it all feels really fake and you can tell the boys don't like one another. With the Harts, you genuinely feel the love because most of the members were family and you believed in their plight, although we all wanted to move on and give society the middle finger.

Canadian Stampede is one of the greatest shows of all-time and I wish it existed on DVD so it didn't take me well over a decade to see it and it warms my heart to see a reunion of sorts in MLW with Davey Jr, Brian Jr and Teddy.

For me, wrestling favorite as a child went from; Hogan to Bret to Austin.

So the Hart Foundation was a big deal for me because Bret was a big deal for me. As a named group, they may not have been together for a long time BUT they were always a group. A family. Whether they were fighting together or against each other, the Hart Foundation was always a part of wrestling.

Hart over DX? Suck it Shawn.

Quoted for truth.

I actually really enjoy the original incarnation of D-Generation X. I didn't care about Shawn's boyhood dream, Shawn was a prima donna asshole and while he worked his ass off trying to deal with that impediment, it was virtually impossible not to get behind Sid and that New York audience. I still have no idea why New York loved Sid so much considering how much they loathe the south, but Sid was just taken in. So I didn't buy into Shawn and when he lost his smile and sat on the sidelines while the WWF were struggling he virtually had to be impossible to like, which is why D-X was such a wonderful thing to happen. Finally, Shawn wasn't worried about his kliq, Shawn was the kliq and he was going to remind everybody just how much he cared about them. He was an obnoxious prick who you wanted to see beaten to a bloody pulp and yet somehow he'd always get the last laugh. It was Ric Flair re-imagined, but in a hip new way and even the fact he had a female body-guard made him detestable. What does a Pro Wrestler need with a female bodyguard? What kind of new age mumbo jumbo is this? Yet it worked.

As I mentioned, they had a fantastic rivalry with the Hart Foundation and you bought into it. The way that all culminated in Montreal is one of those memories that is impossible to forget and to this day is a topic that we still get caught up in. By the by, Vince Russo McMahon screwed Bret just for the record. There was also that feud with The Undertaker which worked for me on two levels. One the Undertaker was the best ass-kicker in all of Pro Wrestling, so if there was one guy you'd want to see put Shawn in his place, it was Taker. The other is that Shawn packed his bags which gave Taker his big moment, so in a way, it was Taker proving himself to Shawn. That led to one of the greatest cage matches of all-time, to the point where they've completely superceded cage matches and we no longer care about them unless they're called Hell in a Cell. As a fan, it's frustrating that the two best matches in WWF history happened in the same year.

They built it up and built it up and it all culminated in one of the greatest PPVs of all-time Wrestlemania XIV. I can watch the show whenever and it just reminds me why I enjoy this silly little art-form. Even HBK-Austin which was disappointing considering the match they had at KotR '97 was still a good match and I liked how it had this Custer's Last Stand kind of feel to it. Shawn was a broken man and the Austin Era was well and truly underway.

I didn't even mind HHH in the mix. I thought he added that brown-nosing best friend dynamic who comes off parasitic but makes the other guy stronger. Without D-X, HHH would never have become the star he did which would probably not be the worst thing, but it's certainly a credit to the stable. The way they were able to exist after Shawn was incredible and I can't think of any other stable that could pull that off. Like others, that's the version I'm most familiar with and for the most part I thought they were pretty enjoyable on the road to SummerSlam '98. Then HHH got injured, the group got sidetracked and before you know it, the group was dead.

When they were brought back in 1999, I thought the dynamic of the group had completely changed and the guys basically became footsoldiers for HHH. The group became decidely mediocre and it wasn't long before they were replaced by the Radicalz which made them all look second-rate.

I wanted to get behind the 2006 revival because I hated the direction the WWE was going in at the time, but they ended up just piling on. It was like expecting a firetruck, only for somebody to doise more gasoline on the fire. I don't know, considering how much HHH shot on Cena in the lead-up to Wrestlemania XXII, I thought that was the direction they were going to go in and you'd have this show that didn't feel as scripted anymore. Instead they were doing all these elaborate pre-tape and skits that all felt incredibly safe and soulless.

If you trimmed the fat, they may have actually made my top 5. D-X from 1997-98 was doing the nWo better than the nWo around that time by really taking advantage of the looser USA Network censorship. However, the fat is a part of it and after watching every show in 1999 I can safetly say the WWE dropped the ball with them to the point where fans didn't want to see some of the members on TV anymore. UT mentions revisionist history, but I think X-Pac Heat also hurt the stable in retrospect.

To clarify my revisionist history or over corrections statement , I just think the WWE's attempt at brainwashing the audiences into the idea that DX were hands down the greatest faction in history - or more egregiously - trying to give them far too much of the credit for winning the Monday Night Wars is actually has had the reverse effect by fans in the know aka us here at PW (except 🤯). People feel the need to overcorrect the WWE's narrative and talk about DX like they were terrible and ruined the WWF and completely overrated - barely even an act on television.

Obviously neither narrative is true , DX were a great act that were incredibly over for a majority of their run on both the face and heel side. They were instrumental in the attitude shift that the WWE ended up needing to defeat WCW but they weren't the main reason it happened.

I love DX , I find them entertaining but for reasons already better stated better than I could by Pete , Baker and the rest I think they have an honest claim to being the 3rd greatest faction of all time if we were to take bias out of it.

The change in culture (aided by the fact that Shawn could get away with anything)
The run upto WM14 and WM14
The complete change in the group and reinventing themselves
The ability to prove they were top faces and heels at different points
NAO arguably being the greatest , or most successful Tag Team in WWF history
Catapulting HHH into a main event star
Debuting Chyna , who despite me believing is overrated was a huge deal and huge attraction for the WWF
The redebut in 2006 and how much merch they moved and the fact they had to be draws again.
The pop culture impact of the crotch chops and suck it being part of probably ALL of our schools.

Bias aside , and as much as I love just about every member of The Hart Foundation more than any member of DX - they were the better and more important faction. Perhaps in a fantasy history where Pillman doesn't get hurt and succumb to addiction and Bret stays with the WWF The Hart Foundation could have been incredibly huge - but that didn't happen. DX did.

Jun 3, 2019 18:34:08 GMT UT said:

NAO arguably being the greatest , or most successful Tag Team in WWF history

What? Is this really true? I find it extremely arguable.

Jun 3, 2019 19:53:42 GMT Emperor said:

Jun 3, 2019 18:34:08 GMT UT said:

NAO arguably being the greatest , or most successful Tag Team in WWF history

What? Is this really true? I find it extremely arguable.

Well you should , seeing as I said arguably.

Hmm...

Not sure what order exactly but I think Demolition, TLC Trio, and New Day all probably rank ahead of NAO in WWE canon.

Jun 3, 2019 19:56:28 GMT 🤯 said:

Hmm...

Not sure what order exactly but I think Demolition, TLC Trio, and New Day all probably rank ahead of NAO in WWE canon.

Maybe , I’d defintely say 2/3 TLC trio are there with them and New Day - meh. They do have the longest reign in an era where the WWE doesn’t give a fuck about teams.

The best argument Demolition , Hardy’s and E&C have is the eras they were in and how much they raised the division. Then again one could argue they had more to work with.

I agree with UT.

DX was way better then the Hart Foundation.

Hart Foundation was my #2. Would have been my #1 had it not been for the stable perfection that is Bullet Club.

Bret Hart rules, the Hart Foundation was awesome, and I'm Canadian. Go figure.

I think it’s the Attitude Era that might also give people (including myself) a dose of the Mandela Effect.

Because, let’s be honest. Austin, Rock, D-X, Undertaker, Mankind and PUPPIES was all at once and all so fucking cool. Especially for a guy. So if you lived through it and loved it, it’ll always be so hard to out-do. Because maybe the tag team division felt awesome back then and wasn’t ? But who cares. When the Outlaws formed and stole the belts from LOD, it felt like a big deal. Outlaws vs Foley/Funk felt like a big deal. Why? Because at that time, The New Age Outlaws (and DX) were a big fucking deal. And if you didn’t know, then your ass better call somebodyyyyyy!

X-PAC was also the man! Who else used to jump 2 feet in the air while crotch chopping yelling suck it at school? I know I ain’t the only one. Thank you Waltman  

Middle fingers, shining things up real nice, human sacrifices, suck it and falling off cells were all new and fresh and bad ass at that time. And if you weren’t a fan, then you didn’t like it. If you were a fan, then you loved it! Because it was fucking cool!

DX > Hart Foundation.

Jun 3, 2019 19:54:54 GMT UT said:

Jun 3, 2019 19:53:42 GMT Emperor said:

What? Is this really true? I find it extremely arguable.

Well you should , seeing as I said arguably.

:lol:

I could say the Basham Brothers were arguably the greatest tag team in WWE history. I'd be blatantly wrong, but by your logic, I could just throw any disagreement under the bus by saying "I said arguably".

Not that the New Age Outlaws are anywhere near as unworthy as the Basham Brothers, but I don't think they are even in the conversation, hence my "extremely arguable" comment. Then again, I didn't really watch them in their prime. Maybe they did more than I realise.

Still, they're up against the Hart Foundation, Demolition, Hardy Boyz, Edge and Christian, Dudley Boyz, Morrison and Miz, New Day, and many others I'm sure I'm overlooking.

Jun 3, 2019 18:34:08 GMT UT said:

To clarify my revisionist history or over corrections statement , I just think the WWE's attempt at brainwashing the audiences into the idea that DX were hands down the greatest faction in history - or more egregiously - trying to give them far too much of the credit for winning the Monday Night Wars is actually has had the reverse effect by fans in the know aka us here at PW (except 🤯 ). People feel the need to overcorrect the WWE's narrative and talk about DX like they were terrible and ruined the WWF and completely overrated - barely even an act on television.

Obviously neither narrative is true , DX were a great act that were incredibly over for a majority of their run on both the face and heel side. They were instrumental in the attitude shift that the WWE ended up needing to defeat WCW but they weren't the main reason it happened.

I love DX , I find them entertaining but for reasons already better stated better than I could by Pete , Baker and the rest I think they have an honest claim to being the 3rd greatest faction of all time if we were to take bias out of it.

The change in culture (aided by the fact that Shawn could get away with anything)
The run upto WM14 and WM14
The complete change in the group and reinventing themselves
The ability to prove they were top faces and heels at different points
NAO arguably being the greatest , or most successful Tag Team in WWF history
Catapulting HHH into a main event star
Debuting Chyna , who despite me believing is overrated was a huge deal and huge attraction for the WWF
The redebut in 2006 and how much merch they moved and the fact they had to be draws again.
The pop culture impact of the crotch chops and suck it being part of probably ALL of our schools.

Bias aside , and as much as I love just about every member of The Hart Foundation more than any member of DX - they were the better and more important faction. Perhaps in a fantasy history where Pillman doesn't get hurt and succumb to addiction and Bret stays with the WWF The Hart Foundation could have been incredibly huge - but that didn't happen. DX did.

Just for the record I didn't say the were irrelevant or tried to over correct. I put them in the top 5 which is still pretty good standing when you consider all the factions in history. X-Pac's return put the screws to WCW further and had an impact on getting the WWF a stronger foothold in the MNW. It's just Austin has little to do with WWE to push his side of things while Triple H is running the ship. 

Plus along with a lot of the other things they did first, The Freebirds beat DX to the punch as kind of anti-authority figures with the rebel flags, rock music and deriding the Von Erichs at every turn.

It's sad how that active stretch for the Hart Foundation reads like a epitaph. I had them ahead of DX at 4 since they could still make old school booking cool when everything else around them was changing. Just watch the 8 10 man Stampede match to see the proof in the pudding. Plus the heel/face dynamic was much more entertaining especially as a Canadian who could easily drink the Kool Aid the Hart Foundation was serving. Plus like jTjohncenaGOAT their genesis brought me back to watching WWF on a regular basis after two and half years.

Well the term arguably is generally used when something isn't just an obvious , end all be all conclusion. Saying you find it extremely arguable in response is pretty redundant since I already admitted it could actually be argued. You aren't coherently arguing that the Basham Brothers is the best or amongst the best teams in WWF history.

There is a short list , a list Miz and Morrison surely don't belong on.

- Hart Foundation
- Demolition
- Hardy Boyz
- Edge and Christian
- New Age Outlaws

Are the 5 teams I think you could make a legitimate argument for.

Jun 3, 2019 20:22:58 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Did WWF care about tag team wrestling when New Age Outlaws were a thing?

Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t all of the major players of that time just two stars put together because creative didn’t have anything for them as singles?

Again. Correct me if I’m wrong. I didn’t watch much WWF during the Attitude Era. I just remember the likes of Big Show/Undertaker, Rock/Mankind, Xpac/Kane, Bossman/Shamrock holding the titles around this same time.

I kind of feel that most people believe that it was the next era when tag titles really took center stage. Hardy’s, E&C, Dudley’s.. when teams were.. IDK.. actual teams.

You aren't wrong , which is why I acknowledged that The HF , Demolition , Hardy's and E&C actually did something to elevate their division which is a huge plus in their favor. 

Still though they were the predecessor for the tag boom that happened and I believe inspired cocky heel OR face teams like Edge and Christian. Along with their hardcore matches against Chainsaw Charlie and Cactus Jack being a precursor to the kind of car crash matches the big three would later become uber famous for. 

I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion they are , they might be my third favorite team ever behind The Hardy's and The original Hart Foundation - but they are in the conversation IMO and deserve to be when you consider their accomplishments , the era they were in and the fact they were one of the most over acts in that era despite not always having the best opponents - people loved them. 

I wouldn't say the New Age Outlaws are the greatest (they kind of sucked), or most successful (the numbers say otherwise) tag team in WWF history, but they are the most over. Fight me.
-------------------------
As I mentioned in the DX post, I went head over heart for this, meaning I had my beloved Hart Foundation way down at #4. If this were strictly a favorites list they'd have been #1 or #2 (explanation to come later). It's hard for me to put into words just how much I loved the Hart Foundation. But I shall try....

The Hart Foundation are like an even better version of the Dangerous Alliance in that they only were around for a relatively short period of time, yet crammed a ton of goodness into that short 7 month window. They held all the major titles, often several at a time. Entire pay per views revolved around them. The idea of them being hated heels in America but heroes to the rest of the world was genius. 10/10 cohesion. Great aesthetics. All time great feuds with Austin & DX. In fact, Bret Hart and the Hart Foundation vs. Austin is my favorite feud of all time. Canadian Stampede is my favorite pay per view ever. And the Canadian Stampede 10 Man Tag is my favorite match of all time. Raw was better than ever with the Foundation on top. I was obsessed with ratings in those days and it actually hurt me to see Nitro keep beating Raw when the Hart Foundation (and their stupid jerk opponents) were killing it every week. As I mentioned in that previous post, wrestling was never more real to me than when the heroic Hart Foundation were waging war against the villainous Austin & DX with the very fate of pro wrestling hanging in the balance. That stuff epitomized Serious Business.

To me, Bret never turned heel. The way I saw it, Bret ascended from a pretty cool WWF loyalist babyface to the biggest babyface of all time. Bret didn't screw the fickle fans. The fickle fans screwed Bret. And now it was payback time...

The Hart Foundation proper kicked off with a bang when Bret recruited his quarreling relatives, Owen & Bulldog, to join him in his quest to keep wrestling great. This was HUGE for somebody who had followed WWF as closely as I had over the years. I'm only half joking when I say it was the most touching moment in wrestling history. My 3 favorite wrestlers in 1997 were Bret-Owen-Bulldog in that order. Things just got better from there with Anvil & Pillman making impactful returns to be with The Family. I loved the visual of poor St. Bret dropping truth bombs from his wheelchair while his army of loyal soldiers surrounded their hero and mine. If Bret was a cult leader, than I was gulping down that Kool Aid, baby. I liked a ton of wrestlers before and after Bret, but 1997 Bret Hart was the only one I unironically viewed as a true hero. Any time the Harts were in Canada was special. I guess technically the first wrestling shirt I ever wanted was a Four Horsemen t-shirt in 1996. But the first wrestling shirts I OMG HAD TO HAVE!!! were the Hart Foundation and (absolutely tasteless) Owen 3:16 tees....

SPOILER: Click to show

But I had little money, no checking account or credit card, and WWF's marketing department was still a few months away from becoming a world conquering juggernaut. So I was deprived of the 2 most must have shirts in wrestling history. A shame. I'm not exaggerating when I say I would have worn these shirts just about every day in 1997. 

Oh, and entirely because of the Hart Foundation, my best friend Rick and I planned on making a pilgrimage to Calgary when he graduated high school (previous planned destination: Memphis).  We talked about this a lot. Yet it never happened because Rick technically never graduated high school. And it was honestly a dumb idea anyway. What were we gonna do? Stalk the Harts a la Larry stalking Bruno? Yes, I do believe that is the most likely scenario. 

Alas, it did not end well for our heroes. If Canadian Stampede was the most joy I ever felt watching a wrestling show (and it totally was. The Hart Foundation's CanStamp entrances and Sandman returning to the ECW Arena are my most watched videos of the YouTube Era. Rarely do more than a few months go by without me watching one or the other, usually both. Few things bring me more joy. Plus OWEN PINS AUSTIN!!!!!!), than the Montreal Screwjob brought me the most sadness. I had heard the rumors of Bret leaving but still held out hope that they were just rumors. Then it happened. I felt as if my other hero, Vince McMahon, had just stabbed me in the back. I was gutted. It lead to some serious soul searching. Hey, like I said, 1997 WWF was serious business.

The Hart Foundation became martyrs. Bret got screwed, concussed, and became a bitter old man. Pillman died while the Hart Foundation was still a thing. Owen literally died in the line of duty. Bulldog became a physical wreck and also died young. Anvil too is dead. Tragic. The whole Saga of the Hart Foundation is some Greek tragedy level shit. For 7 months in the glorious year of 1997 they ruled the world. Then they crashed and burned like you wouldn't believe. That whole story is deep af.

Anyway, remember way back in the beginning of this post when I said the Hart Foundation would either be #1 or #2 on my Favorites List? I just talked myself into them being #1 .....for now. Let's see if I do it again when the other contender comes up.....

Oh, and I also recommend the Owen & Bulldog tags against Austin/Michaels and Austin/Dude Love even if I HATED the results in real time. The match is so-so but the story and booking for Bret vs. Taker w/ Michaels as ref at Summerslam is brilliant. Slightly pre-Hart Foundation, but Owen/Bulldog for the European Title is important to the story and also probably my favorite match in Raw history. Michaels/Bulldog from One Night Only is another tragedy. 

Nothing is perfect. So I do have two criticisms of my beloved Hart Foundation....

The Anvil was past it and honestly sucked. Even at the time I was well aware of this. Yet I still liked him anyway because Yay! Hart Foundation! 

The next is more controversial......I thought Pillman (who was also incredibly broken down) was a terrible fit for the Foundation. Again, I was a fan of his because Yay! Hart Foundation! And I get why he was in it. Calgary background. Beef with Austin. Yada yada yada. But I always thought he stuck out like a sore thumb. Pillman was far more Austin or DX than Bret/Owen/Bulldog. Hell, Pillman was about as new school "1997" as it got. His whole shtick was based on being an edgelord. Meanwhile, Bret/Owen/Bulldog were throwbacks. That's kind of what the whole story was about. What's next? Mr. Backlund in DX?

I wouldn't say the New Age Outlaws are the greatest (they kind of sucked), or most successful (the numbers say otherwise) tag team in WWF history, but they are the most over. Fight me.

Overness is the most important trait in an act. More important than ring work , more important than kayfabe numbers - getting and staying over. 

Santino Marella got and stayed over for a long time. GOAT?

Jun 3, 2019 22:09:32 GMT Emperor said:

Santino Marella got and stayed over for a long time. GOAT?

Well if you’re going to live in hyperbole , I see no reason to even respond further. You’ve hung around Lionheart too long.

The next is more controversial......I thought Pillman was a terrible fit for the Foundation. Yeah, I get WHY he was in it. Calgary background. Beef with Austin. Yada yada yada. But I always thought he stuck out like a sore thumb. Pillman was far more Austin or DX than Bret/Owen/Bulldog. Hell, Pillman was about as new school "1997" as it got. His whole shtick was based on being an edgelord. Meanwhile, Bret/Owen/Bulldog were throwbacks. That's kind of what the whole story was about. What's next? Mr. Backlund in DX?

I couldn't agree more, Pillman really was an awful fit for the Hart Foundation. For me, I never really dug his loose cannon gimmick either, probably because he couldn't wrestle for shit the whole time he was using it. All of Pillman's best ring work came when he was a smiling babyface in WCW.

Anyway, I had the Hart Foundation at 5th on my list. I absolutely LOVED how they were heels in America and faces in Canada. I dug how Bret would give his shades to Canadian kids while not doing the same for American kids. But at the end of the day, they just didn't have the impact of the stables I have ahead of them. They didn't the same impact as DX and they SURE AS HELL didn't have the same impact as the terribly under-ranked on this list Heenan Family.

Jun 3, 2019 22:14:47 GMT UT said:

Jun 3, 2019 22:09:32 GMT Emperor said:

Santino Marella got and stayed over for a long time. GOAT?

Well if you’re going to live in hyperbole , I see no reason to even respond further. You’ve hung around Lionheart too long.

Fair point. I am being rather unfair :lol:

I hear this airless complaint against hyperbole in arguments a lot. I don’t think people realize that this is how logic works. You use an extreme in order to disprove/prove a theory. It is very widespread throughout formal logic and discrete mathematics.

We wouldn’t even have a bunch of basic mathematical principles without the proofs that are only possible because of this kind of reasoning.

So yes, the example of Santino, who was insanely over for a long time, clearly is a logical and reasonable counter to your claim.

Clearly overness is important, but Santino shows there is more to it than that which is also important.

Someone could try to make an argument for the Hart Foundation being more important than D-Generation X. I don't think I'd agree, but it could be made. The Bret/Austin feud that morphed into the Hart Foundation/Austin feud was the hottest thing going in the company in mid-97 as the WWF was bringing itself back up and Austin was clearly marked as the next top guy. Also, if the Hart Foundation had failed, Vince may not have been willing to go with the idea of another main event stable in DX. Sometimes you don't see the fruits of your labour until down the line and both Bret and Shawn, for different reasons, were not able to capitalise on the great work they put in during 1997 and revel in the big business years that followed. Although you could also argue that them being taken out of the equation helped freshen things up in that new era and we can't predict how things would've gone with them still in the picture.

I definitely feel that it is a lot easier to be over during a hot era when the top guy/s is/are super over. They have brought in the people and those people are amped up and excited and easier to please. I mean, Crash Holly in 2000 was more over than upper midcarders in 1995 WWF. He was given a good role and played it well, but was also fortunate with the timing. Look at how over Rikishi and Too Cool were at a point where business was red hot, where simply dancing and having a gimmicky finishing move was enough, and then how unover that act was once things had cooled down. Sure, they were stale, but even that act fresh likely struggles in a less hot time.

Hell, Billy Gunn was over pretty much because Road Dogg was good on the mic and had a routine that the fans liked to chant along with. He couldn't even deliver his line at the end very well in my opinion (his voice, his delivery, it just came across poorly for me), but that didn't even matter. The Outlaws were tremendously over. UT is right in that mid-98 to early-99 Outlaws are a definite contender for most over WWF tag team ever, even if it was a short run in the end. Timing worked very well for them. The nWo brought in new eyes to wrestling and helped make it cool again. The top guys in the WWF did good work to bring the company back upwards in 1997. Then Austin, with the help of Tyson, got things really cooking for the WWF. In that environment, I feel like an act that could've been decently over at another time can end up being hugely over, even if it is for a brief spell. Even with business still red hot, the Outlaws' time was gone even when they reunited in September 1999 and no one really cared all that much. But they were part of the zeitgeist for a short period of time in a way that few wrestling acts have been. There are probably people that you didn't even know used to watch wrestling that could finish off then whole "ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages" spiel if you prompted them with it.

Obviously popularity and overness, especially if it is short-lived, has a certain amount of fortune to it, but so does everything in life and it isn't like every act was over when business was hot either. I can't quite word what I am trying to say, so fuck it, I'll just leave it there and revert back to the initial point.

DX obviously has the Hart Foundation beat on almost every point - peak overness, cultural impact, longevity, multiple incarnations, face and heel (although the Hart Foundation being both at once is a boon for them), launching HHH to main eventer to champion to eventual overlord. But by coming along first and feuding with Austin first, The Hart Foundation's influence and importance to the Fed is probably more significant than we often give them credit for.

Jun 3, 2019 22:33:07 GMT Lionheart said:

I hear this airless complaint against hyperbole in arguments a lot. I don’t think people realize that this is how logic works. You use an extreme in order to disprove/prove a theory. It is very widespread throughout formal logic and discrete mathematics.

We wouldn’t even have a bunch of basic mathematical principles without the proofs that are only possible because of this kind of reasoning.

So yes, the example of Santino, who was insanely over for a long time, clearly is a logical and reasonable counter to your claim.

Clearly overness is important, but Santino shows there is more to it than that which is also important.

I knew I shouldn’t have tagged you.

Hey, people, don't go besmirching the good name of Santino Marella! He was a GREAT act.

Jun 3, 2019 21:43:35 GMT Baker said:

I wouldn't say the New Age Outlaws are the greatest (they kind of sucked), or most successful (the numbers say otherwise) tag team in WWF history, but they are the most over. Fight me.

Ok....




Still got perhaps the loudest pops in WWE history singles or otherwise.

Meh I’ll never consider the Road Warriors a WWF tag team.

You guys are crazy. The real best tag team is THE DUDE BUSTERS.