If the NAO weren't attached to DX no one would have gave a damn about them. Of all of the contenders for "greatest WWE tag team" they are by far the shittiest.

Jun 4, 2019 1:04:28 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

The fact that you guys are debating greatest tag teams and I have yet to see Deuce and Domino be mentioned even once is an outright travesty.

God I hope you're joking.   They had a great theme song and absolutely nothing else.

Jun 4, 2019 1:26:59 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Jun 4, 2019 1:10:33 GMT thereallt said:

God I hope you're joking.   They had a great theme song and absolutely nothing else.

I am. Only 🤯 likes D&D.

Just Cliff Compton.

Jun 4, 2019 0:30:37 GMT Shootist said:

Jun 3, 2019 21:43:35 GMT Baker said:

I wouldn't say the New Age Outlaws are the greatest (they kind of sucked), or most successful (the numbers say otherwise) tag team in WWF history, but they are the most over. Fight me.

Ok....

Still got perhaps the loudest pops in WWE history singles or otherwise.

I really wish there was a way to scientifically prove this :lol:  Because in my heart I know I'm right. My ears do not deceive me. NAO=most over tag team in WWF history. Fact! 
Ideally I'd take 10 random pops from when the NAO were at their babyface peak and put them up against 10 random babyface pops from the Road Warriors or whoever. If only there were a way scientifically measure this.....

I gotta tell you guys becoming a New Age Outlaws apologist might be the weirdest turn of events in my PW internet career. I couldn't stand those guys! At no point was I ever even remotely a New Age Outlaws fan. But ya gotta respect the greats. If that means becoming the Billy Gunn to UT's D-O-Double G then so be it. Wrongs must be righted.

I've been thinking about where I would rate the Outlaws on a WWE GOAT tag team list (future countdown?). Taking into account things like overness, impact, kayfabe success, influence, longevity, and memorability I'd put them in the top tier somewhere between #2-#4. Even if you throw in ring ability/match quality into the mix there's no way they fall out my Top 8. Just off the top of my head I'd have something like...

1. Demolition
2. New Age Outlaws
3. New Day
4. Hart Foundation
5. Hardy Boyz
6. Edge & Christian
7. Dudley Boyz
8. Legion of Doom
*I dunno. Probably 9. Fuji & Tanaka and 10. Wild Samoans

Jun 4, 2019 2:38:42 GMT Baker said:

Jun 4, 2019 0:30:37 GMT Shootist said:

Ok....

Still got perhaps the loudest pops in WWE history singles or otherwise.

I really wish there was a way to scientifically prove this :lol:  Because in my heart I know I'm right. My ears do not deceive me. NAO=most over tag team in WWF history. Fact! 
Ideally I'd take 10 random pops from when the NAO were at their babyface peak and put them up against 10 random babyface pops from the Road Warriors or whoever. If only there were a way scientifically measure this.....

I gotta tell you guys becoming a New Age Outlaws apologist might be the weirdest turn of events in my PW internet career. I couldn't stand those guys! At no point was I ever even remotely a New Age Outlaws fan. But ya gotta respect the greats. If that means becoming the Billy Gunn to UT's D-O-Double G then so be it. Wrongs must be righted.

I've been thinking about where I would rate the Outlaws on a WWE GOAT tag team list (future countdown?). Taking into account things like overness, impact, kayfabe success, influence, longevity, and memorability I'd put them in the top tier somewhere between #2-#4. Even if you throw in ring ability/match quality into the mix there's no way they fall out my Top 8. Just off the top of my head I'd have something like...

1. Demolition
2. New Age Outlaws
3. New Day
4. Hart Foundation
5. Hardy Boyz
6. Edge & Christian
7. Dudley Boyz
8. Legion of Doom
*I dunno. Probably 9. Fuji & Tanaka and 10. Wild Samoans

Hey it’s me , it’s me it’s that U - single T!

I think you’d have to have The Usos on there. Much to my chagrin.

Also the Rockers dont have the titles but they were OVER and innovative for the WWF. Also they have one of the most iconic WWF moments ever.

You're all lucky I wasn't active around here once The New Day got listed, or I would have gone super in-depth. Also New Day should have been above The Nation and The Corporation.


And not listing a single match against The Usos as a notable match is a crime. Replace The Wyatt Family match with vs Usos in Hell in a Cell. That feud is the best tag team feud WWE has mustered on the main roster in as long as I can even remember.

Jun 4, 2019 2:38:42 GMT Baker said:

Jun 4, 2019 0:30:37 GMT Shootist said:

Ok....

Still got perhaps the loudest pops in WWE history singles or otherwise.

I really wish there was a way to scientifically prove this  Because in my heart I know I'm right. My ears do not deceive me. NAO=most over tag team in WWF history. Fact! 
Ideally I'd take 10 random pops from when the NAO were at their babyface peak and put them up against 10 random babyface pops from the Road Warriors or whoever. If only there were a way scientifically measure this.....

I gotta tell you guys becoming a New Age Outlaws apologist might be the weirdest turn of events in my PW internet career. I couldn't stand those guys! At no point was I ever even remotely a New Age Outlaws fan. But ya gotta respect the greats. If that means becoming the Billy Gunn to UT 's D-O-Double G then so be it. Wrongs must be righted.

I've been thinking about where I would rate the Outlaws on a WWE GOAT tag team list (future countdown?). Taking into account things like overness, impact, kayfabe success, influence, longevity, and memorability I'd put them in the top tier somewhere between #2-#4. Even if you throw in ring ability/match quality into the mix there's no way they fall out my Top 8. Just off the top of my head I'd have something like...

1. Demolition
2. New Age Outlaws
3. New Day
4. Hart Foundation
5. Hardy Boyz
6. Edge & Christian
7. Dudley Boyz
8. Legion of Doom
*I dunno. Probably 9. Fuji & Tanaka and 10. Wild Samoans

I would rate the NAO highly in terms of kayfabe success and overness, thanks primarly to Road Dogg's mic skills and being affiliated with DX.   But they were frankly dogshit in the ring, had little influence and in terms of impact I can't rate them very highly either.    Their era was absolutely WEAK for tag team wrestling.

Jun 4, 2019 0:30:37 GMT Shootist said:

Still got perhaps the loudest pops in WWE history singles or otherwise.

Let's not go crazy now. Any time you are introducing Steve Austin into a pop claim, you aren't going to win. Let alone Hogan and Rock. LOD were tremendously over, especially considering the Fed was starting to move into a down period when they arrived. Imagine how even more over they'd have been in 87-89 WWF.

Jun 4, 2019 2:38:42 GMT Baker said:

Ideally I'd take 10 random pops from when the NAO were at their babyface peak and put them up against 10 random babyface pops from the Road Warriors or whoever. If only there were a way scientifically measure this.....

I don't think the Outlaws would beat them on pops because they weren't a pop act. As soon as the music hit, rather than pop, the crowd were singing along with Road Dogg.

Jun 4, 2019 5:08:08 GMT thereallt said:

I would rate the NAO highly in terms of kayfabe success and overness, thanks primarly to Road Dogg's mic skills and being affiliated with DX.   But they were frankly dogshit in the ring, had little influence and in terms of impact I can't rate them very highly either.    Their era was absolutely WEAK for tag team wrestling.

I think the Outlaws' influence is actually pretty big, because I think it was mainly the Outlaws and X-Pac that helped Triple H get over as well as he did as a face. Without them in that version of DX, I don't think it works, and there is a chance that Triple H never makes that next step. You seem to think the Outlaws massively benefited from being in DX (and they clearly did), but I think face DX massively benefited from having the Outlaws. Outlaws don't get as over as they did without being part of the collective, but DX doesn't get as over without the Outlaws.

In terms of tag wrestling itself, their influence isn't much, agreed. They had little to work with at their most over, probably a large reason why they were split up so quickly. In-ring was the least important aspect and they had their entrance with Road Dogg intro and a few over moves. All they needed.

Something I do like about the history of DX that doesn't often get brought up is that the Outlaws were their little buddies from the start. Helping them out, in matches with them, but not official members. If they had actually joined the group while HBK was still around, it may have hurt the transition. It would just be X-Pac replacing HBK and HHH becoming leader. But with the Outlaws not officially joining until this change, it made them feel very distinct. Three new members joining, DX now being one man larger than it was (Tyson was obviously never going to be a full-time member).

2. The Four Horsemen 

Active 

1985 - 1991 

1993 - 1999 

Original Horseman 

Ric Flair 

Arn Anderson 

Tully Blanchard 

Ole Anderson 

JJ Dillon (Manager)

Other Members 

Barry Windham 

Lex Luger 

Sting 

Sid Vicious 

Paul Roma 

Brian Pillman 

Chris Benoit 

Steve McMichael 

Jeff Jarrett 

Curt Hennig 

Dean Malenko 

Notable Rivals 

Dusty Rhodes 

Sting 

Legion of Doom 

Lex Luger 

Magnum TA 

Notable Matches 

The Four Horsemen vs Dusty Rhodes , Dr. Death , Lex Luger & Nikita Koloff (War Games , GAB 1988)

Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (Steel Cage Match , GAB 1986)

Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard vs Barry Windham & Lex Luger (COTC 1 , 1988)

Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes (First Blood Match , Starrcade 1986)

Championships and Accolades 

5x NWA Heavyweight Champion 

2x NWA Tag Team Champions 

3x NWA United States Heavyweight Champions

5x NWA World Television Champion 

8x WCW Heavyweight Champion 

2x WCW United States Champion 

2x WCW World Tag Team Champion 

1x WCW Television Champion 

2012 Inductees into WWE Hall of Fame 

4x WON Wrestler of the Year (Flair)

3x WON Most Outstanding Wreslter (Flair)

3x Best on Interviews (1x Anderson , 2x Flair)

3x MOTY Winners 

I'm not well versed enough to even begin talking about the Horsemen and their legacy , I know the bullet points and the main things but they have such an extensive history that I wouldn't know where to begin. Definitely a job for the more knowledgable posters.

Anyways I probably have them too low on my personal list , FOR ME , they just had too many incarnations to really attach to one and it also seems like everyone has a different favorite. Being mostly an outsider who watches all my Horsemen stuff in retrospect I docked them for that , probably unfairly.

Boo! I was hoping the Horsemen would claim the top spot. Be back later to explain why. I’m sure I’ll also have a storytime or 7 as well.

I’m glad they’re not #1, but I do understand the love and hype this group got. Fair placement, IMO.

Boo! for having no autosave on here anymore. I just lost my longest post in awhile after clicking a wrong button. The Horsemen were number 2 on my list.

I just don't have the energy to rehash everything I wrote. Don't sleep on the originals as they were true badasses/ 

This site is still up 22 years after I found it. 1993-1999 isn't even updated!
www.solie.org/horse/horseindex.html

Great book, an easy read and not too in depth. I got it off Amazon a few months ago:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Still cool after all these years. Even the nWo borrowed a few things from the Horsemen.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Man that sucks, I put a lot into that origianl post...

Jun 4, 2019 19:53:33 GMT Shootist said:

Boo! for having no autosave on here anymore. I just lost my longest post in awhile after clicking a wrong button. The Horsemen were number 2 on my list.

There should be an auto save when you click back into the post or on the page.

Jun 4, 2019 19:54:44 GMT UT said:

Jun 4, 2019 19:53:33 GMT Shootist said:

Boo! for having no autosave on here anymore. I just lost my longest post in awhile after clicking a wrong button. The Horsemen were number 2 on my list.

There should be an auto save when you click back into the post or on the page.

 I ended up on a page to drag and drop files, clicked back and my post was gone.

Jun 4, 2019 20:03:19 GMT Shootist said:

Jun 4, 2019 19:54:44 GMT UT said:

There should be an auto save when you click back into the post or on the page.

 I ended up on a page to drag and drop files, clicked back and my post was gone.

Maybe there’s an option in settings because I remember that happening to me.

Jun 4, 2019 20:14:57 GMT UT said:

Jun 4, 2019 20:03:19 GMT Shootist said:

 I ended up on a page to drag and drop files, clicked back and my post was gone.

Maybe there’s an option in settings because I remember that happening to me.

You're right, that setting was turned off. Should work now.

What's worse... Roma as a horseman, or Vincent and the rest of the nWo B team?

Roma by a million miles. Before him, the previous members of the Horsemen had been Flair, Ole, Arn, Tully, Luger, Windham, Sting and Sid. Those are elite names. Paul Roma was the lesser name in Power & Glory, a lower ranked WWF tag team, and hadn't been seen on TV for 2 years when he became a Horsemen.

The nWo was a stable attempting to take over WCW and was initially pushed as if they were invading from the WWF. Ted DiBiase was portrayed as the financier. In order to become a threat to an entire company, they were going to need to expand to have a lot of members. And they were going to need some cannon fodder of their own, who could take beatings so the big names would not have to. DiBiase's former bodyguard, an old WWF name, was perfect in that role really.

A part of my long post was how with a few tweaks it would have been perfect for Windham to rejoin in 1993. Flair returning at Superbrawl in North Carolina and crowning Barry himself as the new NWA champion seemed like a good starting point. Barry just kind of walked off in disgust though establishing his lone wolf persona.

The Horseman were my #1 with a bullet. This is the faction that pretty much DEFINED what a faction is in pro-wrestling. Every single notable face in the NWA/WCW has feuded with the Horseman at one point or another. Terrific impact, terrific charisma, terrific work rate, terrific mic skills, the Horseman had it all.

There was never any doubt. The Horsemen were always going to be my #1. They defined what it meant to be a great faction. They'd also be either #1 or #2 on a favorites list depending on the day.

I recently read an interesting post on another forum where the writer talked about how an entire generation of fans whose members became the ultimate tastemakers in wrestling thought (think Meltzer, Keller, etc.) based their concept on what made great wrestlers and great matches on Ric Flair. Well, the Horsemen are fittingly the "Ric Flair" of stables. 

I could sit here for hours listing all the Horsemen's title reigns, memorable matches, moments, angles, and feuds. Just look at that list of accolades UT posted! But I'm not going to do that* because this post is already gonna be hella long. I'll just say that so many of the tropes we take for granted were either invented or popularized by the Horsemen. They're the measuring stick by which all other stables are judged. They're basically the Simpsons of wrestling stables. No matter how great this or that stable may have been, a part of me would always be thinking "The Horsemen already did it." 

*What I will do is a group by group analysis interspersed with liberal amounts of storytiming.

First Version- Flair/Arn/Tully/Ole w/JJ Dillon (1986)- The group that defined what it meant to be a stable came about by a happy accident. I can't help wondering whether the Horsemen, or something like it, could organically come into being today given the current micromanaged state of wrestling. I have my doubts. Had legendary feuds and matches with Dusty, the Rock & Rolls, and others. They were just before my time and I'm actually not terribly familiar with this incarnation beyond the greatest hits and the well done storyline where they kicked Ole to the curb. Fwiw even as a teenager who was blissfully unaware of Grumpy Ole I thought he sucked. He was like the Horsemen's terribly uncool embarrassing drunk uncle. 

Flair/Arn/Tully/Lex w/ JJ (1987)- My intro to the Horsemen. You might want to sit down for this bombshell. I was actually not a Day One Horsemen fan. I don't even remember what I initially thought about them. I'm guessing something ranging mild fandom to mild dislike. They were just kind of there to dumb kiddie me. Lex was a major upgrade over Ole in my book. He had star power and was much more 'of the time.' I do remember buying into him as the next big thing. Pretty sure I thought Flair was just a placeholder champ until Lex was ready to claim his rightful place as the NWA's version of Hulk Hogan. This is where Arn & Tully first became a full time team. Held most of the belts at one time or another. Were involved in the first War Games Match, which would become synonymous with both NWA/WCW and the Horsemen. That 1st War Games has my highest recommendation btw. Great match. I like JJ Dillon a lot as NWA's less charismatic (but still awesome) answer to Bobby Heenan. Had memorable feuds with Dusty, Nikita and the Road Warriors. Top 3 Horsemen unit imo. Lex leaving was a great storyline that NWA got major mileage of out. You guys liked the HHH/Batista storyline, right? Well, the Horsemen already did it. 

Flair/Arn/Tully/Barry w/ JJ (1988)- GOAT Horsemen unit. Longtime good guy Barry Windham turning heel to join the Horsemen was a Major Event and the 2nd greatest heel turn of all time. For the bulk of their run they held the top 3 titles- Flair- NWA, Barry-US, Arn & Tully- Tag. Barry during this run was the first Horseman I ever loved. I was really into badass Barry Windham of the Black Glove giving jabronies the dreaded Clawhold. Yet I hated Arn & Tully (in the good way) for beefing with my NWA heroes, the Midnight Express. Feuded with Lex, Dusty, and the Midnights. There's a reason why this is the version WWE picked to put in their HoF. They're the cream of the crop. Behind only the Dangerous Alliance when it comes to the greatest collection of talent ever assembled in one stable.

*Tragedy! Arn, Tully, and eventually Barry left NWA for the greener pastures of WWF, leaving NWA Horsemen free for the first time in years.

Flair/Arn/Sting/Ole (late 89-early 90)- Flair & Sting had already been paling around for a while when Arn & Ole returned to NWA in late 1989. This group only officially lasted for like a month. It was a means to an end. On that level it worked. Sting becoming a Horsemen, even ever so briefly, added more fuel to the fire when the rest of the group turned on him. It was a great angle that probably would have drawn major money had Sting not suffered the most untimely injury in wrestling history. Plus seeing Sting's name on a list of Horsemen just gives the group even more credibility.

Flair/Arn/Barry/Sid (90-91)- Haven't seen much from this version. Just those badass Arn & Windham vignettes and another stellar War Games match where the Horsemenesque Larry Zbyszko capably filled in for Arn. Feuded primarily with Sting, Lex, and Doom. Oh, and Flair was the NWA champ at times because of course he was. 

Flair/Arn/Roma (1993)- My choice for worst Horsemen unit. They didn't do a whole lot as a group. The Horsemen work best as heels. This incarnation were babyfaces. Plus Paul Roma is easily my choice for worst Horseman. And there were only 3 of them. Umm... the group is called the Four Horsemen. Wtf? Four is literally in the name. This was a disaster. Feuded with Windham & The Hollywood Blondes. Arn & Roma held the tag titles, while Flair held the NWA Title, which was basically the equivalent to the Smackdown World Championship in this weird time in wrestling history.

*At this point the Horsemen mean little to me. I was primarily a WWF kid. The Horsemen were just a group NWA/WCW sometimes trotted out. I was mostly indifferent to them and certainly had no Horsemen nostalgia. That's all about to change....

*In late 95 my fandom leveled up. I started reading the Apter Mags and renting wrestling tapes every weekend. It was through these mags, conversations with my new wrestling fanatic friends, and especially the tapes (NWA tapes > WWF tapes, with the Horsemen being a major reason why) where I finally became a Horsemen enthusiast. This Horsemen boom happened to perfectly coincide with...

Flair/Arn/Pillman/Benoit (95-96)- The first Horsemen unit I ever (mostly) loved in real time. I had been a Flair Guy since 1989, but I was also mostly indifferent to Arn....until now. The Flair/Arn feud which eventually lead to this Horsemen reunion in a rather convoluted way is where I finally became a diehard Arn Anderson Guy. After some initial trepidation, I quickly climbed aboard the Benoit bandwagon. And then there was Pillman...

I was actually not a fan. I wanted to like him because Yay! Horsemen! but he was just too weird. I didn't think he fit in with the rest of the group. I didn't really get his whole "Loose Cannon" shtick and just viewed him as a hyperactive weirdo. Like I knew the stuff he was doing was supposed to be important. I just didn't get how or why. I think a lot of the shoot stuff went way over my head. I was still like 90% mark and knew next to nothing about the inner workings of wrestling. Plus he was the catalyst for my new WCW hero Mr. Wonderful getting injured via spiked piledriver on the floor. So, yeah, Pillman was a jerk who needed to be shown the door. And that Orndorff injury angle even had me (briefly) turn on the others. I was convinced Mr. Wonderful was going to come back and run through the Horsemen one by one before eventually beating Flair for the WCW Championship at Great American Bash or some other major pay per view  :lol: Sadly it was not to be and we got the stupid NWO instead. Too bad. That Orndorff storyline would have drawn all the dimes. Anyway, in addition to Orndorff, this group feuded with Sting, Lex, Hogan, Savage...basically all the top babyfaces.....and Kevin Sullivan/Giant. 

Flair/Arn/MONGO/Benoit (96-97)- Aww yeah! This was the real time peak of my Horsemen fandom. By this point I was all in on all things Horsemen. They could do no wrong. The Mongo Swerve was huge to my friends and I. It even made the local news! The Horsemen now had a mainstream sports star in the group. To this day Great American Bash '96 in Baltimore is one of the shows I most regret not attending. Benoit/Sullivan and Flair/Arn vs. Mongo/Greene from that show are recommended, with Benoit/Sullivan getting the strongest possible recommendation. For 2 months in the summer of '96 these guys were almost Hart Foundation-level over with my friends and I*. Even some random Nitro match before some PPV where they fought 4 babyface jobbers is something I remember super well.

I've told the story before of how my friends and I got 4 tie dye shirts (for some reason) and wrote our "Horseman" name on them in black magic marker  :lol:  It was so geeky. So ghetto. Being a pompous jackass, of course I was Flair. My best friend Rick was Arn for obvious reasons. My cousin was Benoit because he was the smallest and youngest. While my brother was Mongo because he was a huge fan of the 80s Chicago Bears. It worked out perfectly. Oh, and being Mongo was not an insult. We all loved Mongo! My extended family (and Rick) went to the Outer Banks of North Carolina on vacation that summer. Nearly every photo from that vacation featured the four of us flashing the four fingered Symbol of Excellence. We were such nerds  :lol:  Unsurprisingly the 'real' WCW Horsemen shirt was the first wrestling shirt I ever wanted to get. Anyway, this group feuded with Sullivan/Dungeon of the Doom in the beginning before moving on to a long rivalry with the NWO. The only gold they tasted was Flair holding the US Title but what they lacked in titles they made up for in greatness.

*It wasn't JUST us either. The Horsemen were Big in Baltimore. Wrestling as a whole was heating up and I remember seeing a lot of folks wearing Horsemen shirts that summer. The one I remember most was some guy 5-10 years older than us who sat a row in front of Rick and I at an Orioles game (I wanna say they were playing the Brewers). We struck up a conversation and ended up discussing The Horsemen/NWA/WCW with this guy for practically the entire game. Good times.

-Tragedy! Strikes again. WWF loyalty trumped even Horsemen loyalty. I threw a major hissy fit when Flair failed to capture the WCW Championship from Hogan at the August Clash and promptly swore off WCW forever. So the rest of this is a bit of a blur to me since I wasn't watching in real time. I'll just add that I went old school Horsemen crazy again when I got a bunch of NWA/Flair tapes not long after I first got online in early 98.

Jarrett & Perfect (1997) were briefly Horsemen, though not at the same time. This should have been quite literally the greatest thing ever. See, when Perfect left WWF in late 1996 I came up with this fan fic fever dream for The Ultimate Horsemen. The idea was to have Flair as....Flair, Double A & Double J as a tag team called Double Trouble, and Perfect as the heir apparent/US Champ. The Ultimate Horsemen would take down the NWO to become the saviors of WCW. Flair would win the belt from Hogan. Double Trouble would beat the Outsiders for the tag belts. And Perfect would beat Savage or whoever for the US Title. Then they'd beat the NWO in a Losing Faction Must Break Up War Games match. The next few months would see the NWO explode with Perfect in the "Lex Luger" role of a Horseman who got too big for his britches. Maybe JJ & Arn break up with JJ siding with Perfect. So Starrcade 97 would have Flair/Perfect for the WCW Championship with Perfect going over, JJ/AA or AA & JJ defending against the Steiners or whoever, Outsiders vs. Hogan & Savage or Nash/Hogan and Hall/Savage, and a whole bunch of other awesome stuff. Seriously. A Flair/AA/JJ/Perfect Horsemen booked strongly as the saviors of WCW wouldn't merely have brought me back, it may well have turned me into a hardcore WCW fanatic....

But we didn't get that. Instead we got JJ leaving within weeks and Perfect immediately swerving the Horsemen to join the hot new toy known as the NWO. Fuck this company. They did the impossible. They got me to turn on Mr. Perfect! Even from afar this pissed me off so much. Hey, it was 1997. 1997 was the peak of #ItsStillRealToMe The Horsemen were now an afterthought. Their reward for BUILDING THE DAMN COMPANY was to be the NWO's personal job boys.

Flair/Malenko/Benoit w/ Arn (98-99)- Flair coming back with a reformed Horsemen was the last great WCW moment in my book, and one of only two WCW things I sought out during my boycott (the other being the Bret/Benoit "Owen Match"). It was great. But then stupid WCW turned them heel and made Flair a crazy person*. Again, fuck this company. I did like the Benoit/Dean team a lot though. They had the old school sensibilities of Arn & Tully with cooler moves. Benoit & Dean were the logical evolution of the Horsemen. I loved that whole little tag team scene they had with the Horsemen, Flock, Filthy Animals & Triad. Of course they quickly ruined that too. 

*Just remembered Flair actually wanted to turn heel....but WCW shouldn't have let him. So they still suck. And Flair honestly has some bad ideas/opinions.

Let's wrap things up with one of the greatest themes of all time.....



*holds up four fingers*

Jun 5, 2019 5:20:19 GMT Baker said:

There was never any doubt. The Horsemen were always going to be my #1. They defined what it meant to be a great faction. They'd also be either #1 or #2 on a favorites list depending on the day.

I recently read an interesting post on another forum where the writer talked about how an entire generation of fans whose members became the ultimate tastemakers in wrestling thought (think Meltzer, Keller, etc.) based their concept on what made great wrestlers and great matches on Ric Flair. Well, the Horsemen are fittingly the "Ric Flair" of stables. 

I could sit here for hours listing all the Horsemen's title reigns, memorable matches, moments, angles, and feuds. Just look at that list of accolades UT posted! But I'm not going to do that* because this post is already gonna be hella long. I'll just say that so many of the tropes we take for granted were either invented or popularized by the Horsemen. They're the measuring stick by which all other stables are judged. They're basically the Simpsons of wrestling stables. No matter how great this or that stable may have been, a part of me would always be thinking "The Horsemen already did it." 

*What I will do is a group by group analysis interspersed with liberal amounts of storytiming.

First Version- Flair/Arn/Tully/Ole w/JJ Dillon (1986)- The group that defined what it meant to be a stable came about by a happy accident. I can't help wondering whether the Horsemen, or something like it, could organically come into being today given the current micromanaged state of wrestling. I have my doubts. Had legendary feuds and matches with Dusty, the Rock & Rolls, and others. They were just before my time and I'm actually not terribly familiar with this incarnation beyond the greatest hits and the well done storyline where they kicked Ole to the curb. Fwiw even as a teenager who was blissfully unaware of Grumpy Ole I thought he sucked. He was like the Horsemen's terribly uncool embarrassing drunk uncle. 

Flair/Arn/Tully/Lex w/ JJ (1987)- My intro to the Horsemen. You might want to sit down for this bombshell. I was actually not a Day One Horsemen fan. I don't even remember what I initially thought about them. I'm guessing something ranging mild fandom to mild dislike. They were just kind of there to dumb kiddie me. Lex was a major upgrade over Ole in my book. He had star power and was much more 'of the time.' I do remember buying into him as the next big thing. Pretty sure I thought Flair was just a placeholder champ until Lex was ready to claim his rightful place as the NWA's version of Hulk Hogan. This is where Arn & Tully first became a full time team. Held most of the belts at one time or another. Were involved in the first War Games Match, which would become synonymous with both NWA/WCW and the Horsemen. That 1st War Games has my highest recommendation btw. Great match. I like JJ Dillon a lot as NWA's less charismatic (but still awesome) answer to Bobby Heenan. Had memorable feuds with Dusty, Nikita and the Road Warriors. Top 3 Horsemen unit imo. Lex leaving was a great storyline that NWA got major mileage of out. You guys liked the HHH/Batista storyline, right? Well, the Horsemen already did it. 

Flair/Arn/Tully/Barry w/ JJ (1988)- GOAT Horsemen unit. Longtime good guy Barry Windham turning heel to join the Horsemen was a Major Event and the 2nd greatest heel turn of all time. For the bulk of their run they held the top 3 titles- Flair- NWA, Barry-US, Arn & Tully- Tag. Barry during this run was the first Horseman I ever loved. I was really into badass Barry Windham of the Black Glove giving jabronies the dreaded Clawhold. Yet I hated Arn & Tully (in the good way) for beefing with my NWA heroes, the Midnight Express. Feuded with Lex, Dusty, and the Midnights. There's a reason why this is the version WWE picked to put in their HoF. They're the cream of the crop. Behind only the Dangerous Alliance when it comes to the greatest collection of talent ever assembled in one stable.

*Tragedy! Arn, Tully, and eventually Barry left NWA for the greener pastures of WWF, leaving NWA Horsemen free for the first time in years.

Flair/Arn/Sting/Ole (late 89-early 90)- Flair & Sting had already been paling around for a while when Arn & Ole returned to NWA in late 1989. This group only officially lasted for like a month. It was a means to an end. On that level it worked. Sting becoming a Horsemen, even ever so briefly, added more fuel to the fire when the rest of the group turned on him. It was a great angle that probably would have drawn major money had Sting not suffered the most untimely injury in wrestling history. Plus seeing Sting's name on a list of Horsemen just gives the group even more credibility.

Flair/Arn/Barry/Sid (90-91)- Haven't seen much from this version. Just those badass Arn & Windham vignettes and another stellar War Games match where the Horsemenesque Larry Zbyszko capably filled in for Arn. Feuded primarily with Sting, Lex, and Doom. Oh, and Flair was the NWA champ at times because of course he was. 

Flair/Arn/Roma (1993)- My choice for worst Horsemen unit. They didn't do a whole lot as a group. The Horsemen work best as heels. This incarnation were babyfaces. Plus Paul Roma is easily my choice for worst Horseman. And there were only 3 of them. Umm... the group is called the Four Horsemen. Wtf? Four is literally in the name. This was a disaster. Feuded with Windham & The Hollywood Blondes. Arn & Roma held the tag titles, while Flair held the NWA Title, which was basically the equivalent to the Smackdown World Championship in this weird time in wrestling history.

*At this point the Horsemen mean little to me. I was primarily a WWF kid. The Horsemen were just a group NWA/WCW sometimes trotted out. I was mostly indifferent to them and certainly had no Horsemen nostalgia. That's all about to change....

*In late 95 my fandom leveled up. I started reading the Apter Mags and renting wrestling tapes every weekend. It was through these mags, conversations with my new wrestling fanatic friends, and especially the tapes (NWA tapes > WWF tapes, with the Horsemen being a major reason why) where I finally became a Horsemen enthusiast. This Horsemen boom happened to perfectly coincide with...

Flair/Arn/Pillman/Benoit (95-96)- The first Horsemen unit I ever (mostly) loved in real time. I had been a Flair Guy since 1989, but I was also mostly indifferent to Arn....until now. The Flair/Arn feud which eventually lead to this Horsemen reunion in a rather convoluted way is where I finally became a diehard Arn Anderson Guy. After some initial trepidation, I quickly climbed aboard the Benoit bandwagon. And then there was Pillman...

I was actually not a fan. I wanted to like him because Yay! Horsemen! but he was just too weird. I didn't think he fit in with the rest of the group. I didn't really get his whole "Loose Cannon" shtick and just viewed him as a hyperactive weirdo. Like I knew the stuff he was doing was supposed to be important. I just didn't get how or why. I think a lot of the shoot stuff went way over my head. I was still like 90% mark and knew next to nothing about the inner workings of wrestling. Plus he was the catalyst for my new WCW hero Mr. Wonderful getting injured via spiked piledriver on the floor. So, yeah, Pillman was a jerk who needed to be shown the door. And that Orndorff injury angle even had me (briefly) turn on the others. I was convinced Mr. Wonderful was going to come back and run through the Horsemen one by one before eventually beating Flair for the WCW Championship at Great American Bash or some other major pay per view  :lol: Sadly it was not to be and we got the stupid NWO instead. Too bad. That Orndorff storyline would have drawn all the dimes. Anyway, in addition to Orndorff, this group feuded with Sting, Lex, Hogan, Savage...basically all the top babyfaces.....and Kevin Sullivan/Giant. 

Flair/Arn/MONGO/Benoit (96-97)- Aww yeah! This was the real time peak of my Horsemen fandom. By this point I was all in on all things Horsemen. They could do no wrong. The Mongo Swerve was huge to my friends and I. It even made the local news! The Horsemen now had a mainstream sports star in the group. To this day Great American Bash '96 in Baltimore is one of the shows I most regret not attending. Benoit/Sullivan and Flair/Arn vs. Mongo/Greene from that show are recommended, with Benoit/Sullivan getting the strongest possible recommendation. For 2 months in the summer of '96 these guys were almost Hart Foundation-level over with my friends and I*. Even some random Nitro match before some PPV where they fought 4 babyface jobbers is something I remember super well.

I've told the story before of how my friends and I got 4 tie dye shirts (for some reason) and wrote our "Horseman" name on them in black magic marker  :lol:  It was so geeky. So ghetto. Being a pompous jackass, of course I was Flair. My best friend Rick was Arn for obvious reasons. My cousin was Benoit because he was the smallest and youngest. While my brother was Mongo because he was a huge fan of the 80s Chicago Bears. It worked out perfectly. Oh, and being Mongo was not an insult. We all loved Mongo! My extended family (and Rick) went to the Outer Banks of North Carolina on vacation that summer. Nearly every photo from that vacation featured the four of us flashing the four fingered Symbol of Excellence. We were such nerds  :lol:  Unsurprisingly the 'real' WCW Horsemen shirt was the first wrestling shirt I ever wanted to get. Anyway, this group feuded with Sullivan/Dungeon of the Doom in the beginning before moving on to a long rivalry with the NWO. The only gold they tasted was Flair holding the US Title but what they lacked in titles they made up for in greatness.

*It wasn't JUST us either. The Horsemen were Big in Baltimore. Wrestling as a whole was heating up and I remember seeing a lot of folks wearing Horsemen shirts that summer. The one I remember most was some guy 5-10 years older than us who sat a row in front of Rick and I at an Orioles game (I wanna say they were playing the Brewers). We struck up a conversation and ended up discussing The Horsemen/NWA/WCW with this guy for practically the entire game. Good times.

-Tragedy! Strikes again. WWF loyalty trumped even Horsemen loyalty. I threw a major hissy fit when Flair failed to capture the WCW Championship from Hogan at the August Clash and promptly swore off WCW forever. So the rest of this is a bit of a blur to me since I wasn't watching in real time. I'll just add that I went old school Horsemen crazy again when I got a bunch of NWA/Flair tapes not long after I first got online in early 98.

Jarrett & Perfect (1997) were briefly Horsemen, though not at the same time. This should have been quite literally the greatest thing ever. See, when Perfect left WWF in late 1996 I came up with this fan fic fever dream for The Ultimate Horsemen. The idea was to have Flair as....Flair, Double A & Double J as a tag team called Double Trouble, and Perfect as the heir apparent/US Champ. The Ultimate Horsemen would take down the NWO to become the saviors of WCW. Flair would win the belt from Hogan. Double Trouble would beat the Outsiders for the tag belts. And Perfect would beat Savage or whoever for the US Title. Then they'd beat the NWO in a Losing Faction Must Break Up War Games match. The next few months would see the NWO explode with Perfect in the "Lex Luger" role of a Horseman who got too big for his britches. Maybe JJ & Arn break up with JJ siding with Perfect. So Starrcade 97 would have Flair/Perfect for the WCW Championship with Perfect going over, JJ/AA or AA & JJ defending against the Steiners or whoever, Outsiders vs. Hogan & Savage or Nash/Hogan and Hall/Savage, and a whole bunch of other awesome stuff. Seriously. A Flair/AA/JJ/Perfect Horsemen booked strongly as the saviors of WCW wouldn't merely have brought me back, it may well have turned me into a hardcore WCW fanatic....

But we didn't get that. Instead we got JJ leaving within weeks and Perfect immediately swerving the Horsemen to join the hot new toy known as the NWO. Fuck this company. They did the impossible. They got me to turn on Mr. Perfect! Even from afar this pissed me off so much. Hey, it was 1997. 1997 was the peak of #ItsStillRealToMe The Horsemen were now an afterthought. Their reward for BUILDING THE DAMN COMPANY was to be the NWO's personal job boys.

Flair/Malenko/Benoit w/ Arn (98-99)- Flair coming back with a reformed Horsemen was the last great WCW moment in my book, and one of only two WCW things I sought out during my boycott (the other being the Bret/Benoit "Owen Match"). It was great. But then stupid WCW turned them heel and made Flair a crazy person*. Again, fuck this company. I did like the Benoit/Dean team a lot though. They had the old school sensibilities of Arn & Tully with cooler moves. Benoit & Dean were the logical evolution of the Horsemen. I loved that whole little tag team scene they had with the Horsemen, Flock, Filthy Animals & Triad. Of course they quickly ruined that too. 

*Just remembered Flair actually wanted to turn heel....but WCW shouldn't have let him. So they still suck. And Flair honestly has some bad ideas/opinions.

Let's wrap things up with one of the greatest themes of all time.....



*holds up four fingers*

Time to bounce off of Baker for to get re inspired for a longer post. These were a few of my points in my original post that got lost:

To me Ole was what gave the Horsemen that edge to them that made them the most violent group to ever hit the scene. He was a great promo that was just bare bones "we are going to kick your ass", his serious tone made you believe it. He was the driving force with all those getting rid of Dusty promos that eventually lead to the parking lot attack in late 1986. That angle legit shook me with it's guerrilla type filming and the video having to be censored for it's brutality. Talent wise yes the Barry version was the greatest  but for making an impact and establishing their sheer thirst for violence the originals will always be tops in my book. Too bad Ole is bitter at everything so this version could get the proper recognition and exposure to younger fans through a Hall of Fame induction.

Luger was a perfect logical replacement for Ole. Lex was the new "blue chipper", why wouldn't the Horsemen be interested in that? They did stray a bit with the Flair/Garvins/Precious storyline (still funny as hell) but got back to their violent selves in War Games. Luger failing at Starrcade and getting kicked out because he wouldn't let JJ win a Bunkhouse Stampede was just great storytelling.

Barry joining was an even better fit considering his history with Flair and undeniable talent level. Plus they got a great parking lot beatdown of Lex in which reinforced how dangerous they were. Barry feuding with Dusty was great too as Dusty was wiling to bleed buckets to sell that claw hold.

I thought it was kind of dumb to have Sting join which I knew was going to lead to a double cross. For the Horsemen though a stroke of luck occurred and Sting legit hurt his knee. This gave the Horsemen their violent menace back and gave more credibility to that storyline when Sting took the title away from Flair. Plus that angle at Halloween Havoc with Sting facing monster Sid and Barry interfering as a fake Sting was one of the best moments of a much maligned booking era of WCW. I was a fan of the Sid/Barry version.

Benoit seemed the odd man out for me. As much of a fan I was of him he just didn't have the star power behind him I thought to make it work. By Great American Bash 1996 he proved his worth feuding with Kevin Sullivan. Pillman's antics didn't stand out as much to me as the quieter other ex-Stampede guy did initially.

I too was a fan of Mongo joining, like him or not he did have a certain charisma on the mic plus he was a member of the '85 Bears. That's a pretty big feather in the cap of Horsemen membership. It then got all too convoluted with whiny Jarrett and the attempt at 5 women for 5 Horsemen. Hennig stabbing Flair in the back was the worst and I was convinced it was kliq residue with Kevin Nash behind the scenes pulling the strings to embarrass the old war horses.

After the initial spark of their 1998 return they were back to being stumbling buffoons and the antithesis of what they were originally, a well oiled machine and the ultimate example of teamwork. I just wanted it to end and by the spring of 1999 it was over with all parties involved just going their separate ways. They deserved so much better.

1. The New World Order 

Active 

1996 - 2001 (WCW)

2002 (WWF)

Original Trio 

Hollywood Hogan 

Scott Hall 

Kevin Nash 

Other Members 

Ted DiBiase 

The Giant 

Vincent 

Syxx 

Buff Bagwell 

Eric Bischoff 

Miss Elizabeth 

nWo Sting 

Curt Hennig 

Rick Rude 

Konnan 

Nick Patrick 

Dennis Rodman 

V.K. Wallstreet 

Big Bubba Rogers 

"Macho Man" Randy Savage 

Scott Norton 

Masahiro Chono 

The Disciple 

Scott Steiner 

Brian Adams 

Dusty Rhodes 

WWF Members 

Hollywood Hogan 

Scott Hall 

Kevin Nash 

X-Pac 

Big Show 

Booker T 

Shawn Michaels 

Notable Rivals 

World Championship Wrestling 

Sting 

Goldberg 

The IV Horsemen 

Randy Savage  

Notable Matches 

The Outsiders vs Sting , Lex Luger & Randy Savage (BATB 1996)

The nWo vs Sting , Luger , Ric Flair & Arn Anderson (Fall Brawl 1996)

Randy Savage vs DDP (Spring Stampede 1997)

Hollywood Hogan vs Sting (Starrcade 1997)

Hollywood Hogan vs The Rock (Wrestlemania 18)

The nWo is tough for me because I have to acknowledge how much they did mean to the business and how they turned it on it's head and were incredible for the initial part of their run. I went back and watched a lot of nWo stuff prior to and during this list and not the WWE productions stuff but the network has collections of stuff and the nWo collection pretty showed all of their important matches and moments and so much of it was such great television and it's no wonder why they took off like they did. The attack on the guys in the back that includes the Mysterio lawn dart is still one of , if not my favorite thing WCW ever did.

I was up and down on a bunch more , I didn't like the inclusion of The Giant in the nWo but that was really just the tip of the iceberg , we all know that eventually everyone seemed to join the group and it (for me) started losing a lot of its luster. I know the gimmick was that of a takeover but I would have liked them to slowly milk the former WWF guys first for awhile before WCW guys started jumping ship randomly and for silly reasons (aka The Giants hollywood contract). Just didn't play well for me at all.

Fast forward to the bad times and for as much of the reason they gave WCW a chance to fight the WWF in a war , they were also a big factor in it's demises. They didn't do one of the most important things factions are meant to do in creating new stars - barely put anyone over and the angles never really seemed to pay off in the right way. I don't like any of that and feel if I was going off their initial stuff - they are the clearcut #1 but if you are taking everything into consideration , including the whack WWF version they should be knocked down a few spots.

At the end of the day the stuff thats good holds up incredibly well , the stuff that doesn't is amongst the worst shit in wrestling history.

I'm sure Pete will come in and tell me why I'm wrong , but it's my take on the matter. The nWo was one of the biggest things in wrestling history but amazingly enough - could have been bigger if they had some sort of reigns and better foresight.

Also love the huge writeups Baker & Shootist - incredible insight to the horsemen.

1. Bullet Club
2. The Hart Foundation
3. nWo
4. The Wyatt Family
5. The Alliance
6. The Four Horsemen
7. Right To Censor
8. British Strong Style
9. Suzuki-Gun
10. Raven's Flock
11. The Straight Edge Society
12. The Brood
13. Age of the Fall
14. The Riott Squad
15. The New Day

I also had the nWo at #3, and since my list was purely based on favourtism, I'm fine with them winning. You can't deny the impact they had, changing wrestling forever and putting WCW at #1 during the goddamn Attitude Era. That's unfathomable.

Three guys coming together changed everything. And they had some stellar feuds along the way. The downfall of WCW lies solely with creative and the powers signing the checks, definitely not the nWo. They struck gold and screwed it all up.

...

As you can see as you go down my list my taste is all over the place. I like a stable that is powerful like The Wyatts, Four Horsemen, BSS, Suzuki-Gun...but I also like a stable that has a great story or gimmick, like RTC or New Day...and then there's just the darker, punk rock part of me that always gravitated towards Raven, SES, Brood, AOTF, Riott Squad...

This was a really fun list to follow. Old standards may have won but I still enjoyed it, knowing I was likely on the outside looking in on a lot of these.

Jun 5, 2019 18:33:29 GMT RT said:

1. Bullet Club
2. The Hart Foundation
3. nWo
4. The Wyatt Family
5. The Alliance
6. The Four Horsemen
7. Right To Censor
8. British Strong Style
9. Suzuki-Gun
10. Raven's Flock
11. The Straight Edge Society
12. The Brood
13. Age of the Fall
14. The Riott Squad
15. The New Day

I also had the nWo at #3, and since my list was purely based on favourtism, I'm fine with them winning. You can't deny the impact they had, changing wrestling forever and putting WCW at #1 during the goddamn Attitude Era. That's unfathomable.

Three guys coming together changed everything. And they had some stellar feuds along the way. The downfall of WCW lies solely with creative and the powers signing the checks, definitely not the nWo. They struck gold and screwed it all up.

...

As you can see as you go down my list my taste is all over the place. I like a stable that is powerful like The Wyatts, Four Horsemen, BSS, Suzuki-Gun...but I also like a stable that has a great story or gimmick, like RTC or New Day...and then there's just the darker, punk rock part of me that always gravitated towards Raven, SES, Brood, AOTF, Riott Squad...

This was a really fun list to follow. Old standards may have won but I still enjoyed it, knowing I was likely on the outside looking in on a lot of these.

WCW creative? So the nWo? Bischoff?

Bischoff and Russo for sure. And I guess Hogan and Nash take some of the blame for refusing to put people over while also doing dumb shit like the Finger Poke of Doom.

My point was that the nWo made WCW and then garbage decisions by both creative and upper management drove the company into the ground.

Jun 5, 2019 20:18:12 GMT RT said:

Bischoff and Russo for sure. And I guess Hogan and Nash take some of the blame for refusing to put people over while also doing dumb shit like the Finger Poke of Doom.

My point was that the nWo made WCW and then garbage decisions by both creative and upper management drove the company into the ground.

I think all their hands are dirty and they lacked a bigger picture type endgame.

Russo I don’t know... what was he going to do? It’s like asking a doctor to revive a corpse.