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Post by 🤯 on Sept 13, 2019 2:37:23 GMT
I recall being very unimpressed with Reservoir Dogs. It was almost Usual Suspects bad.
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 13, 2019 2:38:03 GMT
Except that editing/trimming can really help with the flow of a movie and how engaging it is. A movie shouldn’t make it audience asks itself why this scene is happening or taking so long as they are watching it - and QT is certainly guilty of this. I fall asleep during most of his movie and I don’t say that just to take a shot - it’s because it loses me or drags because he can be IMO over indulgent and too much of a fan of the craft that he loses perspective. The plot is exactly what it's supposed to be though , I would get this criticism if it wasn't 100% their intent. The plot was always meant to be secondary to the characters and The Coens did a brilliant job writing the dialogue and setting up this remarkable cast to just shine. I admit that it's not the most common approach to filmmaking , the plot usually takes precedent over everything but that's why I think the movie is brilliant and endlessly rewatchable. I love the lack of a commitment to a strict plot.
Your response to LT's complaint about the plot in Lebowski is pretty much exactly what I was trying to get across with Tarantino's style in terms of length / dragging on with Hateful Eight. A movie isn't meant to make a viewer ask why the scene is happening or taking so long, yes, but many viewers such as myself did not do that when watching the movie. The scenes were edited exactly how they were intended to be to entertain those people like me who loved the way it was done. Claiming the whole film should be edited differently or cut down more just to suit your individual taste when it already worked as intended to entertain others is a bit self-sighted.
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Post by mikec on Sept 13, 2019 3:00:51 GMT
The argument that “it’s exactly what the artist wanted” and “it entertained me so it’s ok” are not actual arguments against the use of or the need for editing.
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 13, 2019 4:56:15 GMT
Yet “it isn’t the intended effect to make me wonder why it’s long” and “it was boring to me” are reasons for the opposite?
That’s the other side of the same coin. The point is that some people liked it and others didn’t. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, which is the assumption being made.
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 6:17:10 GMT
I think Lionheart just likes boring things. He probably watches paint dry when he can’t find a movie to watch. Especially if it takes an hour longer to dry than the instructions suggest.
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Post by Emperor on Sept 13, 2019 9:26:41 GMT
Yet “it isn’t the intended effect to make me wonder why it’s long” and “it was boring to me” are reasons for the opposite? That’s the other side of the same coin. The point is that some people liked it and others didn’t. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, which is the assumptionion being made. So, we're not allowed to criticise or give negative feedback on anything because the artist intended it to be that way, so it can't be wrong? Of course we can't assume that something that doesn't entertain an individual has the same effect on everyone, but using this as a base to shut down any criticism is dumb and unproductive.
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Post by thereallt on Sept 13, 2019 12:17:27 GMT
I had Reservoir Dogs at #5. Great movie, but Pulp Fiction took everything Reservoir Dogs did and made it better.
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 14:52:11 GMT
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 14:57:44 GMT
No Country was my #1 , it was hard to pick it over Lebowski and Reservoir Dogs but at the end of the day I couldn't see it being anywhere else. It's such a great fucking movie and the more I go back and rewatch it the more it moves up my all time list as a favorite of all time. The cast is brilliant , the dialogue is the best the Coens have ever done , the cinematography is gorgeous and the story is a ton of fun to try and follow.
The idea that your lead character would die off screen , with such little stock put into it at all is amazing and really sets the tone for the movie. It was shocking at the time for me and still gets me everytime as I always forget we don't see Brolin die and his death is completely unceremonious. That takes balls to do and incredible skill to do well.
The standout though is Chigurh as one of the best villains of all time. That scene at the gas station with the attendant and the coin toss is IMO one of the best scenes ever and certainly up there with my favorites. I could go back and just watch that. Actually I could probably just go back and watch a cut of Chigurh scenes and that would still rate highly on any list. The gas station scene , the pharmacy/surgery on himself scene , the chiling end scene with Llewelyn's wife - all just fucking amazing. I love them.
Sucks it had to be #2 on the overall list , should have been first.
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 13, 2019 15:07:49 GMT
Yet “it isn’t the intended effect to make me wonder why it’s long” and “it was boring to me” are reasons for the opposite? That’s the other side of the same coin. The point is that some people liked it and others didn’t. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, which is the assumptionion being made. So, we're not allowed to criticise or give negative feedback on anything because the artist intended it to be that way, so it can't be wrong? Of course we can't assume that something that doesn't entertain an individual has the same effect on everyone, but using this as a base to shut down any criticism is dumb and unproductive. How smart and productive is simply claiming the movie should be cut down / edited because it was too long and boring with zero details on what actually made it feel that way? What's the difference with other long movies? Where do you draw the line and stop editing? Or is just "more editing/trimming is better"?
I am not shutting down "any criticism". I am shutting down this criticism because it is dumb and unproductive. There's nothing wrong with saying you found the movie boring, but using that as a base to make the boisterous claim that the editing was bad is ludicrous when the director meant it to be edited that way, knows what they are doing, and a ton of people loved it. UT just made the point about the artist's intention, and obviously that doesn't excuse any poor decision, but UT is still right about that. In combination with them being successful because of that intent and it clearly being something enjoyed, it does thoroughly show that it shouldn't be changed just because some didn't like it that way. I think Lionheart just likes boring things. He probably watches paint dry when he can’t find a movie to watch. Especially if it takes an hour longer to dry than the instructions suggest.
Is the point of this ridonkulous reply that Tarantino does not follow the typical film-making instructions and make his movies shorter like everyone else? I think we can all be glad that some creative people like Tarantino still paint outside the lines and don't just follow the instructions.
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 15:24:44 GMT
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Tarantino needs to completely change his formula to appease his detractors , it's obviously successful and built him a legion of fans who love him and love his style. The fact is though that the same style and approach is a turnoff to some people and they are going to speak against it - not with the intent or suggestion he needs to change but with the criticism that they hate it and it's not for them and he probably never will be. I get that it's QT's thing , but I think his thing sucks , and it sucks for me because I do think I could enjoy his movies more if he would just show some personal restraint.
And the point of my ridonkulously awesome reply was just to point out that you like long and boring things. Like The Deer Hunter for a non QT example.
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 13, 2019 15:43:47 GMT
That is all I wanted to hear. That makes perfect sense as opposed to just saying there should have been more editing with no context.
I'm not saying anyone can't dislike something either. They are just WRONG. HAHAHAHAHHAA FOOLS! TARANTINO IS THE MASTER!
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 15:43:59 GMT
Here's the thing that bugs me the most about Tarantino. I like the guy , I like listening to him talk about movies and he's one of the great podcast listens because his knowledge is insane and it's clear how much he loves and appreciates movies and he could talk for DAYS about them and I love that. It's awesome and I would recommend to anyone to seek out some Tarantino interviews to listen to him talk about other movies , the guy is insane.
That's also his biggest detriment though , is that he then wants to turn around and put all his knowledge and love for everything movies from the last 100 years and cram as much as possible into his own movies that it becomes overindulgent. I don't even know that I blame him 100% because I'm sure as a fan of movies most of us would want to do the same from some of our all time favorite movies but the end product IMO suffers from it thus the opinion that he needs an editor to reign him in.
So yeah QT the movie guy is awesome and that influences the QT the director in negative ways. In. My. Opinion.
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 13, 2019 15:47:22 GMT
I completely agree. This ties back into some earlier discussion on here where I was saying Tarantino makes "cool" movies. He's not necessarily primarily focused on making good ones. I love his films because they showcase all the love and knowledge for film crammed into one movie and I enjoy watching that, but I certainly agree that it sacrifices quality in many ways. But the end result is still of a higher quality than most director's films anyway so it's hard to complain about.
I will also say that may be why I think Reservoir Dogs is the best out of his movies. It is relatively simple and has the least cramming of shit into it.
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Post by PB on Sept 13, 2019 15:50:08 GMT
Hurray! I was worried NCFOM wouldn't make it and something like Kill Bill 2 was going to be this high. UT already summed up why it's so good. It's just so menacing and unnerving. One of the really great things is how minimal the soundtrack is. I still vividly remember the silence in the cinema watching key scenes and how much more terrifying it was as a result.
1.Reservoir Dogs
4. No Country For Old Men
7. The Big Lebowski 8. Fargo
Almost amazed it looks like it's going to be a 50/50 split - very pleasantly surprised by that.
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 16:02:12 GMT
I completely agree. This ties back into some earlier discussion on here where I was saying Tarantino makes "cool" movies. He's not necessarily primarily focused on making good ones. I love his films because they showcase all the love and knowledge for film crammed into one movie and I enjoy watching that, but I certainly agree that it sacrifices quality in many ways. But the end result is still of a higher quality than most director's films anyway so it's hard to complain about.
I will also say that may be why I think Reservoir Dogs is the best out of his movies. It is relatively simple and has the least cramming of shit into it.
That is exactly why I consider Reservoir Dogs his best movie and don’t consider it that close.
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Post by UT on Sept 13, 2019 16:03:09 GMT
Hurray! I was worried NCFOM wouldn't make it and something like Kill Bill 2 was going to be this high. UT already summed up why it's so good. It's just so menacing and unnerving. One of the really great things is how minimal the soundtrack is. I still vividly remember the silence in the cinema watching key scenes and how much more terrifying it was as a result. 1.Reservoir Dogs 4. No Country For Old Men 7. The Big Lebowski 8. Fargo Almost amazed it looks like it's going to be a 50/50 split - very pleasantly surprised by that. Oh shit yes , the silence is a great point I forgot to touch on. Brilliant and subtle move by The Coens that just sets the tone even more for the movie. Nice shout.
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Post by The Kid on Sept 13, 2019 16:58:22 GMT
Nailed it.
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Post by thereallt on Sept 13, 2019 18:14:04 GMT
I had No Country ranked #2 for all of the reasons UT stated. Only one of these movies could have been my #1 though.
And since I have no illusions as to what that #1 movie is going to be....
1.Pulp Fiction 2.No Country for Old Men 3.Kill Bill Vol. 2 4.Kill Bill Vol. 1 5.Reservoir Dogs 6.Miller's Crossing 7.Raising Arizona 8.Django Unchained 9.Inglorious Basterds 10.The Ladykillers.
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Post by RT on Sept 13, 2019 18:58:40 GMT
1. The Big Lebowski 2. Fargo 3. No Country For Old Men 4. Pulp Fiction 5. Burn After Reading 6. Reservoir Dogs 7. Inglorious Basterds 8. Kill Bill Vol 1 9. Django Unchained 10. The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs
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Post by Emperor on Sept 13, 2019 20:09:15 GMT
1. Jackie Brown 2. Pulp Fiction 3. Miller's Crossing 4. No Country For Old Men 5. The Hateful Eight 6. Django Unchained 7. Inglorious Basterds 8. The Big Lebowski 9. Once Upon A Time In Hollywood 10. Reservoir Dogs
No Country For Old Men is long overdue for a rewatch, so even #4 might be too low.
I'll use this space to talk about Once Upon A Time In Hollywood. When I made that comment about Tarantino's newer films needing trimming down, this was the main one I had in mind. When the credits rolled I questioned the point of the whole Margot Robbie arc. It was (relatively) the low point of the film and didn't offer anything that the rest offered, except Roman Polanski, and it only connected with the rest of the film at the very end.
Besides that, it was fantastic. Brad Pitt stole the show for me, and that's coming from a huge Leo fan. Granted, he did get most of the cool moments, but Leo played the deeper character. Another fine addition to an outstanding filmography for Tarantino.
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Post by Ness on Sept 13, 2019 20:14:20 GMT
Can't believe Jackie Brown is gonna be #1 with the swerve of a lifetime.
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Post by RagnarokMike on Sept 14, 2019 5:34:52 GMT
Honestly, while it had some great characters and moments, I just don't love No Country...didn't even make my list.
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Post by 🤯 on Sept 14, 2019 13:44:22 GMT
In college (film school), my fellow classmates who took things way too seriously (i.e., the entirety of the student body sans me) held No Country for Old Men in equal regard to Departed.
I felt like the lone genius who realized Mean Girls and the Apartment were closer to perfection.
Anyway... No Country for Old Men, to me, is definitely a quintessential example of acquired taste. And it's no Sicario. Not even close. Although I would love to seen an AvP movie pitting Sicario's Del Toro against No Country's Bardem.
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 14, 2019 15:40:38 GMT
No Country is trying too hard to be Once Upon a Time in Anatolia while still being exciting. The end result is that it failed at both. The worst Coens movie by far.
Also, I’m probably just an idiot, but the briefcase thing made no sense to me at all no matter how much I discussed and thought about it. It seemed pointless for him to switch it to the other room. I don’t remember the details so I should watch it again just for that.
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Post by 🤯 on Sept 14, 2019 15:58:13 GMT
No Country is trying too hard to be Once Upon a Time in Anatolia while still being exciting. The end result is that it failed at both. The worst Coens movie by far. Also, I’m probably just an idiot, but the briefcase thing made no sense to me at all no matter how much I discussed and thought about it. It seemed pointless for him to switch it to the other room. I don’t remember the details so I should watch it again just for that. Coincidentally, it was Marcellus Wallace's other briefcase.
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Post by UT on Sept 14, 2019 16:02:35 GMT
No Country is trying too hard to be Once Upon a Time in Anatolia while still being exciting. The end result is that it failed at both. The worst Coens movie by far. Also, I’m probably just an idiot, but the briefcase thing made no sense to me at all no matter how much I discussed and thought about it. It seemed pointless for him to switch it to the other room. I don’t remember the details so I should watch it again just for that. What other room are you talking about?
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 14, 2019 16:04:42 GMT
Didn’t he switch it to the opposite hotel room through the air ducts or something?
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Post by UT on Sept 14, 2019 16:14:21 GMT
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Post by Lionheart on Sept 14, 2019 16:15:13 GMT
Ugh.
Good movie, but...still. No. It's not the best. Not even close.
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