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Post by c on Nov 23, 2020 20:21:10 GMT
The US has shown masks make a difference. And there are plenty of studies showing the mechanics of the mask to stop the spread of water particulates in the air.
Also common sense shows this. Population density is FAR higher in LA and NYC than in the Dakotas and Wyoming but infection rate in those rural states are the highest in the world, higher than megacities, higher than cities were people pile into the subway or buses, higher than even collapsed Latin American states where soup is not easily found or affordable. The main difference is they refused to wear masks at all.
Peer review med lit in the top journals now agree that masks are effective and the mechanics for why are documented.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 20:32:32 GMT
It is interesting that mask-wearing ended up being massively overstated in its effectiveness. These are the results from the most significant mask-wearing study so far, in Denmark, with almost 5,000 subjects finishing the trial (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817):
- 1.8% of mask-wearers infected - 2.1% of control group infected
Not a significant difference at all. Obviously there are huge limitations with a study like this in that you obviously can't blind it, and you can't account for how effective a mask is at reducing transmission to others - but therein lies with the problem with mask dependence. If we need everybody to wear their mask, and wear it properly, in order for mask-wearing to be effective at controlling the pandemic, then it's not ultimately going to be effective at mitigating spread.
When you tag on the anecdotal point that Western European countries that have mandated mask-wearing haven't seen any great improvement over countries that haven't (the Nordic countries, for example), it becomes clear that mask-wearing is no silver bullet.
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In better news, the vaccine breakthroughs keep coming thick and fast. Phase III data from the much-touted Oxford/AstraZeneca is in and the findings are very good, albeit a bit more curious than the mRNA vaccines we heard about last week.
Oxford tried two different approaches in its phase III trial of a double-dose adenovirus vaccine. It gave one group half a dose, followed by a full dose, and a second group two full doses. This was likely due to the fact that early data in rhesus macaques and initial human subjects showed a better reaction to two stronger doses. Interestingly, the findings from this trial are the inverse of that. Full/full subjects were protected 62%, yet half/full subjects were protected 90%. oThere are two viable explanations - one of the groups is too small for the data to be trustworthy (unlikely), or the immune system rejected the initial strong dose and had a more natural reaction to the smaller dose first. Hopefully the latter - if so, the Oxford vaccine will be as effective as the others.
The most interesting part of this trial though, was that Oxford used PCR testing during the trial, running thousands of tests every week, enabling it to see the effects of the vaccine on spread. It is hinting (it cannot do more than that at this stage since asymptomatic positives were not part of its primary efficacy goal) that the vaccine reduced the presence of the virus in the body, not just the severity of the symptoms. This could be crucial in dealing with two future obstacles - anti-vaccination gimps, and people with weak immune systems that can't be vaccinated. Oxford are hinting that their vaccine (and likely others by proxy) could prevent spread. If that is the case, this will all be over very soon.
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 0:14:36 GMT
Anti-Vaxers are going to be a real problem in dealing with this in the US. But until we get this under control, we will face a public health crisis as hospitals are kept at high capacity to treat those who refuse vaccines. We are praying infection is not common at this rate. Well, the ones who believe the virus is real and a serious thing. Most people here think it will go away in two weeks or so.
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Post by nazzer on Nov 24, 2020 0:40:35 GMT
Todd, don't be bringing real studies into this. DOn't you know if you don't wear a mask you are a bad person and you want everyone around you to die?
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 1:06:23 GMT
Nature considers the topic to be settled. If we are talking about science, Nature is the top scientific journal. www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8But if masks are not a problem, Canada can open them borders anytime and let the maskless Americans visit again.
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Post by Ness on Nov 24, 2020 1:08:01 GMT
Canada can open them borders anytime and let the maskless Americans visit again.
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 1:48:08 GMT
They are such jerks, all like well masks do not work and the virus is not big of a deal but OMG DO NOT LET THE FUCKING AMERICANS OVERS HTE BORDER THEY WILL KILL US ALL!!!!
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Post by iNCY on Nov 24, 2020 2:59:24 GMT
Nature considers the topic to be settled. If we are talking about science, Nature is the top scientific journal. www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8But if masks are not a problem, Canada can open them borders anytime and let the maskless Americans visit again. They are such jerks, all like well masks do not work and the virus is not big of a deal but OMG DO NOT LET THE FUCKING AMERICANS OVERS HTE BORDER THEY WILL KILL US ALL!!!! Mask wearing is not particularly effective in stopping the virus as Todd, laid out in a far more articulate fashion than I could manage. I still wouldn't let Americans in if I was Canada. The single best way to stop infection is if you are sick, any symptoms at all, stay home... This is why the pandemic is spreading. Social distancing is a great precaution for the minority who may be infection but asymptomatic, but the big problem that leads to the spread is people going out in public with symptoms. Then you get people touching their face or a mask, opening a door and the next person who comes through the door rubs their eye and boom, they're infected. The USA is so weird with the whole "Nobody has the right to tell me what to do and it's my God given right to infect half my neighborhood" I don't support lockdowns, but people need to just show basic humanity and care for their fellow man. If you have a sore throat, or cold symptoms or a cough... Stay home!
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 3:56:44 GMT
Staying home is not an option in the US without a lockdown as at will employment means you can simply be fired for getting sick. In the US it is expected that you work in most lower paying jobs. Schools are even moving to no doctor note you need to let the kid go to school sick and be examined by the nurse for the absence due to sickness to be approved.
As for masks, without laws people would not wear them. Men believe it is their body their rules. Women too, but we do not let those silly things make rules.
Masks work for the same reason staying home works. Sick people if mask mandates are in effect can spread the virus shorter distances on average. Without the mandate, people will not wear them, so saying to only wear it if you are sick is not an option when dealing with humans who will find excuses as to why something not mandated should not apply to them. Fuck even when legally mandated people still argue all the time over here over whether or not the mask mandate applies to them.
Others countries should man up!!! If the virus is not serious like others says let the Americans in!!! Trump was so close to opening Australia...
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Post by System on Nov 24, 2020 7:51:14 GMT
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Post by nath45 on Nov 24, 2020 8:02:28 GMT
As for masks, without laws people would not wear them. Men believe it is their body their rules. Women too, but we do not let those silly things make rules. When it comes to masks, America says, my body = my rules. When it comes to a woman's choice/abortion, America says, absolutely not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2020 8:29:16 GMT
Nature considers the topic to be settled. If we are talking about science, Nature is the top scientific journal. www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8But if masks are not a problem, Canada can open them borders anytime and let the maskless Americans visit again. It does not take a genius to work out that wearing a mask will reduce the amount of the virus being released into the air by an infected person. What I'm talking about is mandating mask-wearing and the actual effects of that on transmission. There is a dangerous mentality in some places that wearing a mask is the key aspect of social responsibility during this pandemic. We've all seen on social media people being derided and being called stupid for not wearing a mask properly in a large crowd. Those people are stupid, but more-so because they are standing in large crowds of people, than for anything to do with a mask. How many protests have we seen in recent months where huge groups of people are gathering, but they all think it's ok and they're being responsible because they're wearing a mask? This is the issue. For some people, wearing a mask will be a constant reminder to take the virus seriously. Many others are treating it like a vaccine, in that as long as you wear one, you're safe. These things need to be taken into account when considering the effectiveness of a mandate. There is even some evidence that hand-washing doesn't really do a lot. The clear difference-maker is to stand at all times 1m, preferably 2, away from all other people.
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 10:20:47 GMT
The BLM matters protests did not lead to mass breakouts because the majority were masked basically. Hell without a pandemic many protesters mask up as they are prepping against pepper spray.
Following Trump rallies however we saw mass outbreaks, as we did with antilockdown protests. Moreso look at the timing of the current mass outbreak in the US. As soon as early voting started, two weeks later places were deep in outbreaks and now two weeks after the election we are at record numbers. The majority of cases post election are occurring in places that had no mask mandate.
As for the studies, they show masks are effective, but again people cannot read the results. The effect sizes for mask is expected to be small, but the effect is exponentially applied and compounded. It is like interest on credit cards. It starts small, but the more people that get infected, the more new cases that small effect will create. Then it is compounded, so those new cases also create more cases at an exponential scale.
And sure social distancing is far, far more effective. To that you need to lockdown though or people will simply not do it, as everyone will have a reason why they alone should not have to isolate. Even then, people still will need to shop for supplies or be around other people. In those times masks are effective.
To constant Qantas, the GOP in the US are looking to pass bills to bar discrimination on the basis of vaccination and to block mandatory vaccination. They are looking to overturn Jacobson v. Massachusetts and Zucht v. King, two 100 year old cases that gives states the power to enforce mandatory vaccinations and groups the right to refuse the unvaccinated. Both cases involved the fucking smallpox vaccine so I guess stupid ass people were always a part of the US.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2020 10:26:52 GMT
This is all observational. I know that's all we have - I was more taking issue with your declaration that Nature considers the matter 'settled'. The threshold for settling scientific debates is understandably pretty rigid, and an article that bundles a bunch of observational papers into one doesn't settle anything. The debate continues as it should. This Danish study is the biggest actual trial done on mask-wearing and it is in line with what we thought about masks before coronavirus was a thing. They kind of help, not massively.
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 11:08:57 GMT
It is all observational but you cannot do random assignment in this case, which means the threshold becomes observational and animal analogues which both show consistent agreement that masks work. That said observation data is the way to go here, because experimental methods cannot hope to control every variable of interest, as intense matching would have to be done which is just not possible for every variable of interest. Better to start with a reduced model and look simply at mask wearing and demographics.
Nature does consider the matter settled for the question of are masks effective.
"To be clear, the science supports using masks, with recent studies suggesting that they could save lives in different ways: research shows that they cut down the chances of both transmitting and catching the coronavirus, and some studies hint that masks might reduce the severity of infection if people do contract the disease."
The questions remain are not whether masks are effective, but defining the parameterization in terms of how effective. The other big question is when should they be worn but that is an evaluation question not a scientific one.
That Danish study seems like a good idea, but it is really not sadly. There will likely be non-compliance issues in both groups and it is questionable how the study passed IRB ethical review. The only way I can think to do it, is if an outbreak occurs of X number of people in the non-mask group get COVID the study ends and they non-mask group wears masks. Otherwise you are putting them in preventable harm which is a huge no in research design.
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Post by c on Nov 24, 2020 12:01:55 GMT
Colorado issuing turn away orders for hospitals. Now when at capacity patients will be turned away and directed to other hospitals. This is where the US is at. Colorado is in far better shape than many other states.
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Post by Jake on Nov 24, 2020 15:30:03 GMT
Well, that was a fun, enjoyable two days of employment. Turns out they lied to me on the application and interview, it was cover for two days.
Agency work sucks.
Anyway, good news about the vaccines. Here is hoping we can get back to normality soon, although I would keep a few things from this pandemic restrictions, such as hand sanitizer on entry into any establishment and I guess even face masks when on public transportation? I don't know...the hand sanitizer thing should be kept though.
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Post by nazzer on Nov 24, 2020 18:14:24 GMT
They are such jerks, all like well masks do not work and the virus is not big of a deal but OMG DO NOT LET THE FUCKING AMERICANS OVERS HTE BORDER THEY WILL KILL US ALL!!!! This 'joke' you keep making about letting americans into canada is neiher funny nor a witty method of mocking me. If nothing else it shows your americentric attitude and displays how little you truly understand about the reasons your country is so terrible with respect to taking care of its citizens and just how deep the mental rot that permeates its citizens that is the result of this attitude. Nothing that is happening in the USA should be used as any sort of metric of comparison to the rest of the first world with respect to coronovirus. You dont even have public healthcare, sit down child. You dont have a right to speak in this discussion. Your situation is unique and laughable and does not relate to the rest of the civilized world. You know what i would do if i had symptoms of coronavirus? Go to the hospital or whatever special building has been set up in my community....FOR FREE. There is no waiting, there is no uncertainty, there is no undiagnosed symptoms due to a lack of finances causing me to not see a healthcare professional. Its free. My life isn't ruined because of a trip to the hospital or doctor. So every other country the citizens are able to diagnose, then isolate. Sure its not perfect because of the period in which the disease is contagious before symptoms spread, but the citizens have the calming everyday reassurance of knowing their country is set up in a way they can see a doctor. Your comments about covid, masks, vaccine culture etc are not applicable to other countries because they are coming through the insanity of the american filter. If a canadian is sick he or she gets to go to a doctor for free, and then that person will know and understand their health condition. An american..... pfft cant afford to understand their state of health so who knows what diseases they are bringing into my country. Your lack of healthcare is the reason for your poor performance in your citizens health. Oi vey. Fun fact. Your assertion transmission is worse in the rural right wing areas. Not the case in canada.
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Post by RT on Nov 25, 2020 5:33:15 GMT
Been a fun few days in Canada!
Alberta has announced that as of Nov 30th, schools are closed and children are to go back to distanced learning until sometime in January. I think it's only a matter of time before more provinces follow suit. Alberta is run by the rightiest of right wing dummies, and he's been raked over the coals the past couple weeks for basically pulling a Trump and doing nothing while stoking the flames under his anti-mask base, and now he's going entirely in the other direction and shutting the province down because Alberta has the highest number of cases in Canada now.
BC has expanded their suspension of indoor activities to basically everything except work and school. Friday's announcement only affected "high impact activities" and the examples they gave were cycling classes and hot yoga. Now it's everything. Gymnastics, martial arts, meditating, you name it. Suspended indefinitely until they readjust their guidelines and make sure everyone is following suit.
A restaurant in Ontario refused to shut down despite being in one of the regions that is on lockdown. The owner welcomed the police by blasting "Killing in the Name" by Rage Against The Machine, showing that he's as stupid as everyone thought he was. He got some free publicity for his BBQ joint and now he's facing criminal charges and being made fun of on social media.
Saskatchewan's Premier is in self-isolation because he came into contact with a positive case. Their government wasn't really doing anything anyway so not much will change there. Fortunately everyone lives so far apart in that province they haven't had a lot of problems outside of their northern/Indigenous communities.
NHL legend Fred Sasakamoose died today from COVID. That was sad to hear. Very important figure in the hockey and First Nations community. RIP.
Anyway, the hammer is about to come down on us here again, and I'm hoping they don't hesitate and just drop it because Christmas is coming and we have just as many stupid idiots per capita as the United States does, and I don't need to experience anything like what you Yanks are doing to yourselves. This might be the last Christmas my grandparents see and its tearing me up inside because I can't go visit them for the holidays, but I'm also doing my civic duty and they understand that, and my grandma would probably kick my ass if I showed my face anywhere near their house for that very reason. Hopefully everyone smartens the hell up.
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Post by iron maiden on Nov 25, 2020 6:18:21 GMT
Alberta is the leader in COVID cases in all of Canada!!! Our hospitals and their staff are quickly getting overwhelmed. A friend of mine who is a nurse says at her hospital alone they have 13 people in ICU for COVID. Their ICU has 8 beds usually.
New Measures here are now: No indoor gatherings past your immediate family - unless it's a wedding or funeral and then it's 10 people.
Outdoor gatherings Max 10 (did I mention it's winter here and not BC type winter. Actual snowy cold winter)
No festivals or events
Grades 7-12 at home learning as of Nov 30 (Christmas break is now from Dec 18-Jan 11)
Work from home where possible (if people weren't doing this where they could I don't know what to say)
Places of worship 1/3 capacity
Mandatory masks for all indoor workplaces (believe it or not we were the last province to enact this...I am not shocked)
Restaurants, bars, pubs and lounges open with restrictions. Casinos too just no table games.
Retail at 25% occupancy
Movie theatres, libraries, fitness centers and bingo halls still open with restrictions (you can even go to the waterpark or galaxyland if you want still)
Wellness, personal services (which includes tattoo parlors and body waxing) and private lessons open by appt.
We're all over the place here. Can't get together for Christmas but we can take in a movie, go to the waterpark, get a tattoo and finish off the day at the Casino at the slots.
Meanwhile, our Premier is telling people it's an old people disease. He's a gem.
Then I've got half my Facebook friends' list reminding me how much of a hoax it is and that if I don't agree I'm in agreement of human trafficking. I just don't want anyone I know to die even if it's a 0.01% chance. It's mask and good hygiene. Besides, COVID has been awesome for me. About this time I would be busy every night, every weekend until middle of January so that I can hibernate until March. Now I don't have to have an excuse past 'I would but...COVID. Damn and I was really looking forward to spending a night wishing I were home.'
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Post by c on Nov 25, 2020 6:32:11 GMT
So confused I thought I was just told Canada did not need masks or lockdowns because of the hospital system and COVID denial was a strictly American thing?
And I literally been saying the reason that conservative states are fucked is they been defunding healthcare because they believe it is socialism. Mixing in not believing in the virus just makes things worse. And in most of the rest of the world the US democrats would be conservatives as much of what they right for are already the rights of other countries, such as labor rights, socialized healthcare, police oversight and basic human rights. Our conservatives would be your reactionaries. Exception would be the UK, who somehow went hard right in recent years to do Brexit. Our liberals are fighting for basically what you all already have. And should shit continue the way it is going, our liberals may end up as part of Canada.
I stand by it though, if masks and social distancing are not needed, there is no reason to then keep the border closed. If you have the virus totally under control without needing those, then you should open the borders back up as you are only harming yourself economically.
US is already taking measures to oppose vaccinations. Tenn is the first state to say it will not require children to be vaccinated to attend public schools. Most of the GOP states are planning similar laws.
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Post by c on Nov 25, 2020 17:35:53 GMT
WOW, do to noncompliance in my area with mask rules CT is now increasing fines from 500 to 10000 for COVID violations. Includes having customers not wearing masks. Trumpers going fucking nuts in my local groups as they will likely no longer be able to go into stores without masks.
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Post by RT on Nov 25, 2020 19:08:43 GMT
I stand by it though, if masks and social distancing are not needed, there is no reason to then keep the border closed. If you have the virus totally under control without needing those, then you should open the borders back up as you are only harming yourself economically. Who said masks and social distancing are not needed? That's always been a thing up here. Rules were relaxed a little when numbers were low, but that ended weeks ago. And the border is still open for essential vehicles to cross, so we're not really doing any damage at all. It's just tourism that is taking a hit, which only really affects BC and Quebec. Short-term the economy takes a little hit, but long-term we hope we'll be able to open the border again once the virus is under control (if that ever happens). We're not opening the border to let in more assholes that will just spread the virus because they're selfish dicks, which we all know will be the first people across the second it opens.
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Post by iNCY on Nov 25, 2020 19:34:15 GMT
Meanwhile, our Premier is telling people it's an old people disease. He's a gem.
Then I've got half my Facebook friends' list reminding me how much of a hoax it is and that if I don't agree I'm in agreement of human trafficking. I just don't want anyone I know to die even if it's a 0.01% chance. It's mask and good hygiene. Besides, COVID has been awesome for me. About this time I would be busy every night, every weekend until middle of January so that I can hibernate until March. Now I don't have to have an excuse past 'I would but...COVID. Damn and I was really looking forward to spending a night wishing I were home.' Covid is not a hoax and I still have some long term health effects from having it, but it is an old peoples disease really. If you are already old or sick, then there is an increased chance Covid will kill you, but for whatever reason they won't tell people the real numbers: The numbers in Australia are interesting where the average age of death with Covid is 82 and the normal average age of death is 84. In the past we have been good at patching up old people and giving them a few years extra... But ironically the average age of death with Covid was probably the normal life expectancy for people going back just a few years. It's why the number of deaths in Europe spiked early then levelled out, it knocked over all those who were not far from getting knocked off the perch. We don't get enough real data to know, but I suspect in most cases the deaths are accelerated in people who would have died in the next 2 years. I am not callous or saying this is a hoax, I also advocate social distancing etc. but this is not Spanish Flu, it is an overwhelmingly survivable disease, if hospitals can have an abundance of respirators and a surge workforce, there is no reason that it is not managemable.
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Post by iron maiden on Nov 25, 2020 19:40:57 GMT
I stand by it though, if masks and social distancing are not needed, there is no reason to then keep the border closed. If you have the virus totally under control without needing those, then you should open the borders back up as you are only harming yourself economically. Who said masks and social distancing are not needed? That's always been a thing up here. Rules were relaxed a little when numbers were low, but that ended weeks ago. And the border is still open for essential vehicles to cross, so we're not really doing any damage at all. It's just tourism that is taking a hit, which only really affects BC and Quebec. Short-term the economy takes a little hit, but long-term we hope we'll be able to open the border again once the virus is under control (if that ever happens). We're not opening the border to let in more assholes that will just spread the virus because they're selfish dicks, which we all know will be the first people across the second it opens.
Tru dat! We've got our own selfish dicks to deal with.
Yesterday my friend who works at a small locally owned coffee shop had to call the cops. She asked three knuckle dragging troglodytes to put a mask on. They refused and started waving around a printed copy of The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I also got asked to join a Facebook group called Edmonton Stupidity so I perused it for funsies and lost more IQ points than I care to admit. 'Berta!
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Post by Jake on Nov 25, 2020 20:09:35 GMT
A close family friend has today tested positive for Covid-19, she's traumatised as she's also pregnant and went for a scan on Monday. Blimey, I hope she doesn't develop worse symptoms or worse.
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Post by iron maiden on Nov 25, 2020 20:11:06 GMT
Meanwhile, our Premier is telling people it's an old people disease. He's a gem.
Then I've got half my Facebook friends' list reminding me how much of a hoax it is and that if I don't agree I'm in agreement of human trafficking. I just don't want anyone I know to die even if it's a 0.01% chance. It's mask and good hygiene. Besides, COVID has been awesome for me. About this time I would be busy every night, every weekend until middle of January so that I can hibernate until March. Now I don't have to have an excuse past 'I would but...COVID. Damn and I was really looking forward to spending a night wishing I were home.' Covid is not a hoax and I still have some long term health effects from having it, but it is an old peoples disease really. If you are already old or sick, then there is an increased chance Covid will kill you, but for whatever reason they won't tell people the real numbers: The numbers in Australia are interesting where the average age of death with Covid is 82 and the normal average age of death is 84. In the past we have been good at patching up old people and giving them a few years extra... But ironically the average age of death with Covid was probably the normal life expectancy for people going back just a few years. It's why the number of deaths in Europe spiked early then levelled out, it knocked over all those who were not far from getting knocked off the perch. We don't get enough real data to know, but I suspect in most cases the deaths are accelerated in people who would have died in the next 2 years. I am not callous or saying this is a hoax, I also advocate social distancing etc. but this is not Spanish Flu, it is an overwhelmingly survivable disease, if hospitals can have an abundance of respirators and a surge workforce, there is no reason that it is not managemable. I would make a case that the reason this isn't the Spanish Flu is because we have proper sanitation, hygiene and medical technological advances since then.
I get what you are saying. I do. We are a planet of 8 billion living on a designed to hold 4 billion. We've made huge medical advances in which people are living longer. When I was younger, you very rarely saw people living to 100, now it's all the time. 80 is seen as young still! (Course the closer I get to it the more I think that) I learned in school that war, disease, famine, etc. are all population control, but even though it is a survivable disease does not mean that it won't affect younger people who acquire it for the years to come. You said yourself that months later you still have side effects. Who knows the true ramifications of this yet. It could shorten people's life spans, make them more susceptible to colds and flus which could lead to bronchitis or pneumonia which in turn will weigh down the medical system.
To me if it means I have to sit in my cavern all day, wear Auntie's panties on my face and bathe in Purell then really who am I hurting? If I don't, I truly could be hurting someone by passing it asymptomatically on to them or someone they love.
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Post by c on Nov 25, 2020 21:21:07 GMT
The numbers in Australia are interesting where the average age of death with Covid is 82 and the normal average age of death is 84. In the past we have been good at patching up old people and giving them a few years extra... But ironically the average age of death with Covid was probably the normal life expectancy for people going back just a few years. It's why the number of deaths in Europe spiked early then levelled out, it knocked over all those who were not far from getting knocked off the perch. We don't get enough real data to know, but I suspect in most cases the deaths are accelerated in people who would have died in the next 2 years. I am not callous or saying this is a hoax, I also advocate social distancing etc. but this is not Spanish Flu, it is an overwhelmingly survivable disease, if hospitals can have an abundance of respirators and a surge workforce, there is no reason that it is not managemable. If you still have fatigue you need to really push on your doctor for a pulmonary functioning exam and other lung tests to make damn sure if you have damage they can start treatment. Sadly as I said, in many areas of the US there is not even hospital space to house the sick. Hospitals that fail to make above a certain profit margin are shut down and many rural areas of the US have an hour drive to their closet ER. Fun facts. The entire US has 3,935 hospitals that do acute care. Half of these have less than 100 beds. At most, the US can hold 792,417 patients if all beds are occupied. We are seeing 165,282 new cases a day.
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Post by iNCY on Nov 26, 2020 6:13:39 GMT
Covid is not a hoax and I still have some long term health effects from having it, but it is an old peoples disease really. If you are already old or sick, then there is an increased chance Covid will kill you, but for whatever reason they won't tell people the real numbers: The numbers in Australia are interesting where the average age of death with Covid is 82 and the normal average age of death is 84. In the past we have been good at patching up old people and giving them a few years extra... But ironically the average age of death with Covid was probably the normal life expectancy for people going back just a few years. It's why the number of deaths in Europe spiked early then levelled out, it knocked over all those who were not far from getting knocked off the perch. We don't get enough real data to know, but I suspect in most cases the deaths are accelerated in people who would have died in the next 2 years. I am not callous or saying this is a hoax, I also advocate social distancing etc. but this is not Spanish Flu, it is an overwhelmingly survivable disease, if hospitals can have an abundance of respirators and a surge workforce, there is no reason that it is not managemable. I would make a case that the reason this isn't the Spanish Flu is because we have proper sanitation, hygiene and medical technological advances since then.
I get what you are saying. I do. We are a planet of 8 billion living on a designed to hold 4 billion. We've made huge medical advances in which people are living longer. When I was younger, you very rarely saw people living to 100, now it's all the time. 80 is seen as young still! (Course the closer I get to it the more I think that) I learned in school that war, disease, famine, etc. are all population control, but even though it is a survivable disease does not mean that it won't affect younger people who acquire it for the years to come. You said yourself that months later you still have side effects. Who knows the true ramifications of this yet. It could shorten people's life spans, make them more susceptible to colds and flus which could lead to bronchitis or pneumonia which in turn will weigh down the medical system.
To me if it means I have to sit in my cavern all day, wear Auntie's panties on my face and bathe in Purell then really who am I hurting? If I don't, I truly could be hurting someone by passing it asymptomatically on to them or someone they love.
I agree with everything you said, except for the lock downs. The damage from locking down the economies is being overlooked, I'm not saying that because I am a hard assed capitalist (which I am) it's because money is cheap at the moment and nobody takes debt seriously, but the state I live in just announced a yearly deficit that could have built three state of the art hospitals. That's the problem with debt, it leaves you less room to do the things we want to... As any of us with a mortgage can attest to!!!
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Post by iron maiden on Nov 26, 2020 7:23:37 GMT
I am by no means a fan of lockdowns either as I realize the money is going to have to be made up somehow (likely off the backside of what's left of the middle class), but I don't know another option that is proving as effective. Wasn't your recent one there fairly successful in culling the numbers in some areas to 0?
I'd really like to know how some countries with similar populations or higher were able to do it. Is it that we've got more idiots than I care to admit saying this is the governments way to force us into dictatorship and comparing this to the Hitler regime. They are asking you to sit on your couch and work from home if you can. Hardly comparable to Auschwitz. When this is as oppressed as you've ever felt in your life that is privilege.
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