Sept 19, 2021 19:46:58 GMT nazzer said:

UT, I work at a mine; about 90% male employees. During my first day, in the orientation the safety officer was being misogynistic and making terrible comments about women during a safety presentation while a female HR employee was present. Me and a new engineer hire made several comments about it to each other. Should I have called him out in public in front of everyone? Should I have risked my new job and said something to his supervisor? What should I have done?

Tucked your tail between your legs and hid in the corner.

And making those comments is horrible but you’re literally equating it to rape.

What would you have done if you watched him drug that girls drink and carried her to the back seat of his car after orientation? Still prioritized your job?

Sept 19, 2021 19:50:40 GMT UT said:

Sept 19, 2021 19:46:58 GMT nazzer said:

UT , I work at a mine; about 90% male employees. During my first day, in the orientation the safety officer was being misogynistic and making terrible comments about women during a safety presentation while a female HR employee was present. Me and a new engineer hire made several comments about it to each other. Should I have called him out in public in front of everyone? Should I have risked my new job and said something to his supervisor? What should I have done?

Tucked your tail between your legs and hid in the corner.

And making those comments is horrible but you’re literally equating it to rape.

What would you have done if you watched him drug that girls drink and carried her to the back seat of his car after orientation? Still prioritized your job?

Would you be so bold as to answer my question instead of just turning it around on me? Would you get yourself fired for someone else? What would you do? What have you done in your past?

I would have said something but I’ve never let money dictate my morales , nor would I want to work for a company where that is accepted behavior. I’ve turned in a boss in the past for sending a friend of mine inappropriate messages on Facebook and while he only got suspended and probably knew it was me - I didn’t care.

So again would you be so bold as to tell me whether or not you would step in while watching a date rape happen right in front of you?

The discussion is a fascinating one. It's all very murky.

Sept 17, 2021 11:56:19 GMT Big Pete said:

Tommy Dreamer was integral to that episode and while he came off really insensitive you'd be deluded if you didn't think his opinion wasn't common in the pocker room.

Absolutely true. I imagine a lot of more older school wrestlers feel exactly like Dreamer does. However Dreamer was the only one to voice his thoughts out loud in the public domain, so he receives the punishment, and him alone. Should he be cancelled? Yes. He said Ric Flair's sexual assault was a joke, Ric Flair just being Ric Flair. That kind of mindset needs to be stamped out if we are to grow as a human race.

RVD, on the other hand. I don't know exactly what he said but I think he acknowledged that there was a lot of date rape that he may have been witness to(?), just commenting on it as a matter fact, offering no opinion one way or the other. Of course that shouldn't be punished.

Is RVD a bad person, deserving of our scorn, because he didn't take any kind of action? I lean towards no, and I agree with c's take. If you're in a culture where every wrestler arounds you acts like they do, drinking, drugs, womanising, and even rape...I don't think there's much you can do. As horrible as it is, what can you do? Try to physically stop a rape? You get your ass kicked, maybe even severely punished by your fellow wrestlers, and the rape happens anyway. Complain to management? You're depushed, fired, hated in the back, whatever, and the rape happens anyway.

It's easy to say that you would just quit your job and not endorse such a culture. What if that's the only way you have to feed your family? Should you really throw that away, risking the livelihood of your loved ones, to take a moral stand? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Which is exactly why c says this kind of normalised behaviour needs to be stopped at the very top level if it's going to have any tangible impact. I won't repeat his argument, but I agree with it.

Fortunately we've made a lot of progress, that kind of behaviour is demonised in wrestling culture (and society in general). In 2021 a wrestler would feel much less afraid about reporting or trying to prevent a heinous act if it happened. Because something would be done about it.

RVD has gone after Shawn Michaels verbally in the past for being above the rule time after time again and also physically hit Taz for messing around with him backstage in the infamous "pick a hand" stunt in old ECW. Not his job to police all of the boys backstage again, there are road agents, there are people on the plane that should have stopped it from getting as far as it did. Guys have gotten kicked off International tours for terrible conduct, it should have happened here but it didn't because the guys who did this, were untouchable(no pun intended).

RVD has always come off as a guy who minds his business and tries to just be peaceful and as long as you don't personally mess with him, than your cool.

It’s insane to me that multiple people defend RVD because of culture and more or less because they like him and acting like his hands were tied because it was bound to happen anyways. Shame that’s the sentiment.

Sept 19, 2021 21:25:06 GMT Blindy said:

RVD has gone after Shawn Michaels verbally in the past for being above the rule time after time again and also physically hit Taz for messing around with him backstage in the infamous "pick a hand" stunt in old ECW. Not his job to police all of the boys backstage again, there are road agents, there are people on the plane that should have stopped it from getting as far as it did. Guys have gotten kicked off International tours for terrible conduct, it should have happened here but it didn't because the guys who did this, were untouchable(no pun intended).

RVD has always come off as a guy who minds his business and tries to just be peaceful and as long as you don't personally mess with him, than your cool.

Good lord. When does stopping a rape become not someone’s “job”. Some of y’all are truly disgusting.

Sept 19, 2021 20:25:32 GMT UT said:

I would have said something but I’ve never let money dictate my morales , nor would I want to work for a company where that is accepted behavior. I’ve turned in a boss in the past for sending a friend of mine inappropriate messages on Facebook and while he only got suspended and probably knew it was me - I didn’t care.

So again would you be so bold as to tell me whether or not you would step in while watching a date rape happen right in front of you?

Not sure how we got from my question (which was in response to your comments in this thread) to you asking about date rape happening in front of me. 

You seem shocked that RVD is getting a pass for being aware of things happening and not saying anything. I didn't get the impression he was an active participant or rolled with the people that did those things. To suggest he is as bad as others for not being the first person to attempt to change the culture of a workplace seems a bit much. 

Seems rather surprising you'd have a hard time buying into the idea that one might find it difficult to choose between their ability to feed themselves and their family or their morales, sometimes it's rather difficult to go against the majority in workplaces that have hundreds of people acting a certain way.

And yes, I'd step in if I saw a date rape happening in front of me.  If I was better educated in fancy words about debate I would kknow the proper label of which logical fallacy you are employing by taking the discourse to that level of question. 

Sept 19, 2021 21:36:23 GMT UT said:

Sept 19, 2021 21:25:06 GMT Blindy said:

RVD has gone after Shawn Michaels verbally in the past for being above the rule time after time again and also physically hit Taz for messing around with him backstage in the infamous "pick a hand" stunt in old ECW. Not his job to police all of the boys backstage again, there are road agents, there are people on the plane that should have stopped it from getting as far as it did. Guys have gotten kicked off International tours for terrible conduct, it should have happened here but it didn't because the guys who did this, were untouchable(no pun intended).

RVD has always come off as a guy who minds his business and tries to just be peaceful and as long as you don't personally mess with him, than your cool.

Good lord. When does stopping a rape become not someone’s “job”. Some of y’all are truly disgusting.

There's tons of other people who could have and are paid to stop the talent/wrestlers from making fools of themselves but sadly, guys like Ric Flair can do whatever because he's The Nature Boy. Jim Ross basically watched everything unfold as the VP of Talent at the time, there are road agents who main goal is to get the talent out of dumb predicaments and offer support. What good would whistleblowing have done here? Especially when there's no union or whatever. He whistleblows and is met with Chris Benoit telling him to take your bags and pack outside or get your own car trip to and from an arena and is treated as a pariah and essentially blackballed from ever being welcomed into a locker room. RVD should not have been put in a position to have to physically intervene on however many illegal activity was done.

What should have been done is the airlines upon hearing the complaint from the attendant(s) is put pressure on WWE through court, having Vince lose money over this and get shamed all over media outlets would have been enough to have heads roll over the incident.

A couple years later, WWE allowed Ashley Mazzaro to get raped in a Tribute to the Troops show and for it to be covered up like nothing happened to not bring bad publicity for both the WWE and troops, it's tragic and terrible but how many talent allowed that to happen to a poor girl like that who was just doing her job by attending the show after being told to do by management? 
(That should be a Dark Side of the Ring show in itself given what became of her after all of that trauma) 

Sept 19, 2021 21:43:26 GMT nazzer said:

Sept 19, 2021 20:25:32 GMT UT said:

I would have said something but I’ve never let money dictate my morales , nor would I want to work for a company where that is accepted behavior. I’ve turned in a boss in the past for sending a friend of mine inappropriate messages on Facebook and while he only got suspended and probably knew it was me - I didn’t care.

So again would you be so bold as to tell me whether or not you would step in while watching a date rape happen right in front of you?

Not sure how we got from my question (which was in response to your comments in this thread) to you asking about date rape happening in front of me. 

You seem shocked that RVD is getting a pass for being aware of things happening and not saying anything. I didn't get the impression he was an active participant or rolled with the people that did those things. To suggest he is as bad as others for not being the first person to attempt to change the culture of a workplace seems a bit much. 

Seems rather surprising you'd have a hard time buying into the idea that one might find it difficult to choose between their ability to feed themselves and their family or their morales, sometimes it's rather difficult to go against the majority in workplaces that have hundreds of people acting a certain way.

And yes, I'd step in if I saw a date rape happening in front of me.  If I was better educated in fancy words about debate I would kknow the proper label of which logical fallacy you are employing by taking the discourse to that level of question. 

He literally said he watched guys drug girls and knew what was happening next. Whether or not he rolled with the guys that did it or not - it pretty much happened right in front of him.

My fallacy came from you equating it to someone harassing a female at work and saying you wouldn’t stop it. RVD didn’t witness sexual harassment - he witnessed continuing rapes of minors. That is not remotely the same thing.

Does Tommy deserve to be cancelled? No way. Fans have a right to be critical and demand clarity in light of the doco but it's rash to try and deplatform somebody because a hit piece exposed him in a terrible light.

I didn't get the sense that Rob witnessed any date rape. He said it was common place for the boys to drug people but I'd imagine the relaticely light hearted ribs were more common place. AFAIK Rob never really hung out with the boys and usually just hung with Sabu and that crew. From all reports he was extremely loyal to his ex-wife Sonya who is a cancer survivor and when she left him for the guy who helped build their new home he was in a really dark place because she was his world. Well her and pot, copious amounts of pot but you get my meaning.

I was complimentary of how Rob came across but I wasn't calling him a hero or anything. He just had the better takes and showed some maturity in retrospect.

Edit: Rob did say he saw so many of the boys drop these h bombs into marks drinks so he does indict himself there.

I thought Dreamer a few years ago opening up saying he was ready to kill himself and Paul Heyman one night at Wrestlemania XVII(I think?) would have been the one to get him under hot water, I feel that might be even worse to want to openly kill someone, regardless of what Heyman may have lied or not kept his word on. Think he had a loaded gun ready and everything.

Sept 19, 2021 21:59:58 GMT Big Pete said:

Does Tommy deserve to be cancelled? No way. Fans have a right to be critical and demand clarity in light of the doco but it's rash to try and deplatform somebody because a hit piece exposed him in a terrible light.

I didn't get the sense that Rob witnessed any date rape. He said it was common place for the boys to drug people but I'd imagine the relaticely light hearted ribs were more common place. AFAIK Rob never really hung out with the boys and usually just hung with Sabu and that crew. From all reports he was extremely loyal to his ex-wife Sonya who is a cancer survivor and when she left him for the guy who helped build their new home he was in a really dark place because she was his world. Well her and pot, copious amounts of pot but you get my meaning.

I was complimentary of how Rob came across but I wasn't calling him a hero or anything. He just had the better takes and showed some maturity in retrospect.

Edit: Rob did say he saw so many of the boys drop these h bombs into marks drinks so he does indict himself there.

He mentions girls in the same breath … “so the boys could have their with them”. “It was normal”.

Can we please stop calling Tommy's appearance on the show a "hit piece" or a "hit job"? He said the stupid shit. He volunteered it. He presented himself like a stupid dickhead.

Sept 19, 2021 23:06:00 GMT KITN said:

Can we please stop calling Tommy's appearance on the show a "hit piece" or a "hit job"? He said the stupid shit. He volunteered it. He presented himself like a stupid dickhead.

Not his appearance per se but the whole story and the way it was underscored the doco had a clear vendetta.

As far as RVD and H bombs yes he indicted himself as far as seeing an attempted drugging but we don't know the aftermath of the specific example/s. To throw the book at him seems like an odd whataboutism.

How did this even exist? You can't make it up.

I don’t even care about throwing the book at him as much as pointing out the hypocrisy and the biggest takeaway being Dreamers comments whilst RVD and his history gets a free pass.

It’s because RVD is beloved and Dreamer was far from it outside of ECW and RVD clearly has went on to have a great career. So essentially the IWC gives him the same pass WWF gave Flair.

It’s all dumb anyways - I have no delusions that my wrestling heroes are some kind of great people. That’s not why I watch wrestling nor why I’ll ever watch wrestling. It’s a business chalk full of shitty people and borderline children.

If Ric Flair was black like Bill Cosby he would have been in prison already. This is a good example of white privilege.

Sept 20, 2021 0:17:42 GMT spladle125 said:

If Ric Flair was black like Bill Cosby he would have been in prison already. This is a good example of white privilege.

This.

Sept 20, 2021 0:17:42 GMT spladle125 said:

If Ric Flair was black like Bill Cosby he would have been in prison already. This is a good example of white privilege.

The King of Dong Style Joey Ryan is cancelled and basically done for and is ban on sight essentially for any promotion worth anything these days. And he was inflated by The Young Bucks and co.

Wrestling is carny in the sense that guys can get away with it unless there are just too many allegations. Cosby or Deshaun Watson don't get that entitlement. Not that I agree with it either. I can't imagine how much shit happened with rock shows pre internet for example, that's another wild west sort of deal. Any form of entertainment have these types of jokers really, James Franco is another one who you need two hands to count all the sexual wrongdoings he's been told he's done. Same with Marilyn Manson.

Jokes about The Rockers throwing out women they drugged up and raped.

Think these people are products of the times, not that there's any excuse for what they're doing but the culture and environment of "Boys will be boys" made these wrestlers be so egotistical and heartless.

Good to see more women take the stand to condone this and to speak up and not let others get taken advantage of.

Sept 19, 2021 23:06:00 GMT KITN said:

Can we please stop calling Tommy's appearance on the show a "hit piece" or a "hit job"? He said the stupid shit. He volunteered it. He presented himself like a stupid dickhead.

He did the logical thing and owned up to it at least rather than backpedal or run in denial. Guess there's that at least. 

Potentially it gets worse for Flair. Apparently part of the episode on Chris Kanyon, it will show the running he had with Flair on Howard Stern.

While, it probably wasn't a big deal at the time, it probably isn't going to do any good for his character and how the casual fan and media see him.

As a car crash fan I'm loving this if I'm being honest.

Sept 20, 2021 0:06:05 GMT UT said:

I don’t even care about throwing the book at him as much as pointing out the hypocrisy and the biggest takeaway being Dreamers comments whilst RVD and his history gets a free pass.

It’s because RVD is beloved and Dreamer was far from it outside of ECW and RVD clearly has went on to have a great career. So essentially the IWC gives him the same pass WWF gave Flair.

It’s all dumb anyways - I have no delusions that my wrestling heroes are some kind of great people. That’s not why I watch wrestling nor why I’ll ever watch wrestling. It’s a business chalk full of shitty people and borderline children.

The difference is that Rob was damning of the past behaviour while Dreamer was trying to defend it interspliced with the victim discussing how badly it affected her.

If anything it's surprising that Rob took that path given how he comes off as a stereotypical stoner. Hero worshiping or whatever you're trying to paint it as doesn't come into it.

Sept 20, 2021 0:48:40 GMT NATH45 said:

Potentially it gets worse for Flair. Apparently part of the episode on Chris Kanyon, it will show the running he had with Flair on Howard Stern.

While, it probably wasn't a big deal at the time, it probably isn't going to do any good for his character and how the casual fan and media see him.

(Just pretty lousy of Ric to do that when Kanyon trained his son and took care of David throughout WCW.)

Did Flair turn DSOTR down or something? The Flair family probably going to detest the show the way this is going. 

Sept 20, 2021 0:52:38 GMT Big Pete said:

Sept 20, 2021 0:06:05 GMT UT said:

I don’t even care about throwing the book at him as much as pointing out the hypocrisy and the biggest takeaway being Dreamers comments whilst RVD and his history gets a free pass.

It’s because RVD is beloved and Dreamer was far from it outside of ECW and RVD clearly has went on to have a great career. So essentially the IWC gives him the same pass WWF gave Flair.

It’s all dumb anyways - I have no delusions that my wrestling heroes are some kind of great people. That’s not why I watch wrestling nor why I’ll ever watch wrestling. It’s a business chalk full of shitty people and borderline children.

The difference is that Rob was damning of the past behaviour while Dreamer was trying to defend it interspliced with the victim discussing how badly it affected her.

If anything it's surprising that Rob took that path given how he comes off as a stereotypical stoner. Hero worshiping or whatever you're trying to paint it as doesn't come into it.

It absolutely plays a part in it. People barely even acknowledge it because they didn’t want to.

Also it should be noted that Flair *eventually* will come out if all this just fine. We accepted Hogan back , we accepted Warrior back … we will always accept our wrestling heroes back.

Sept 20, 2021 1:07:48 GMT UT said:

Also it should be noted that Flair *eventually* will come out if all this just fine. We accepted Hogan back , we accepted Warrior back … we will always accept our wrestling heroes back.

He'll eventually state he was under the influence of an illegal substance for the better half of 40 years and has now sought the help and support to live a more positive life without drugs.

Then eventually he'll claim dementia and can't recall any of it.

And we will all be totally okay with it. It’s the circle of wrestling.