People attacking Coach now for speaking out about how some parts of the doc were not factual. Like the McMahons were not on the flight. He also said when to court as a witness during the lawsuit the girl's cases kind of fell apart.

But the internet warriors who now know every detail of what happened on this flight are saying he is wrong and that he is a peace of shit for speaking about it at all.

Mike Chioda came off poorly here. He was laughing it up when telling stories about what happened. Seems like he used to partake in all the ribbing aka sexual harassment but just never got caught.

Statements, like he's got a big hammer, are tone-deaf. Keep that shit to yourself. Nobody is denying this type of stuff goes on but to act like a frat boy about is low class.

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought Tommy came off like a scumbag. Fuck Flair, too.

The flight attendant got fucked over every way possible here. The line about the airlines worrying more about the privacy of the wrestlers over that of their own employee's really got to me. Like, do you not see the hypocrisy here? I honestly thought she did a great job - she was truthful and concise and did a good job of presenting herself in what would be a very challenging task for any victim like this. Good on Dustin, but I wish more had come in to help her.

Also, for a guy who's character I used to hate so much, I gotta say Justin Credible was the biggest babyface here when it comes to non-kayfabe bullshit. Feel bad for the guy for having to star in "Weekend At Razor's". He seems like a decent guy compared to the rest of the bunch. RVD keeping it real was expected, but it was disappointing hearing one of your favorite wrestlers ever telling you that rape was basically normal back in the day. I like that Van Dam's at least honest, but it brings some troubling questions to the surface...

This episode fucked up me more than most and no one even died. "Don't meet your heroes" is sage advice.

Also also - X-Pac cutting off Hayes' ponytail is still the greatest thing he ever did and is probably the only bit of justified hijinks that happened that day.

Just so we are clear? RVD is clear right?

Sept 18, 2021 22:30:22 GMT rad said:

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought Tommy came off like a scumbag. Fuck Flair, too.

The flight attendant got fucked over every way possible here. The line about the airlines worrying more about the privacy of the wrestlers over that of their own employee's really got to me. Like, do you not see the hypocrisy here? I honestly thought she did a great job - she was truthful and concise and did a good job of presenting herself in what would be a very challenging task for any victim like this. Good on Dustin, but I wish more had come in to help her.

Also, for a guy who's character I used to hate so much, I gotta say Justin Credible was the biggest babyface here when it comes to non-kayfabe bullshit. Feel bad for the guy for having to star in "Weekend At Razor's". He seems like a decent guy compared to the rest of the bunch. RVD keeping it real was expected, but it was disappointing hearing one of your favorite wrestlers ever telling you that rape was basically normal back in the day. I like that Van Dam's at least honest, but it brings some troubling questions to the surface...

This episode fucked up me more than most and no one even died. "Don't meet your heroes" is sage advice.

Also also - X-Pac cutting off Hayes' ponytail is still the greatest thing he ever did and is probably the only bit of justified hijinks that happened that day.

Another one would be a drunk Hayes trying to R.Kelly (Pee) on Linda McMahon. I'm surprised they didn't talk about it.

Sept 19, 2021 1:31:13 GMT UT said:

Just so we are clear? RVD is clear right?

Yeah he is in the clear.  He only knew the others were drugging and raping women in the rooms he shared with them.  Thus far, no one accused him of doing itself himself.  

Sept 19, 2021 13:12:04 GMT c said:

Sept 19, 2021 1:31:13 GMT UT said:

Just so we are clear? RVD is clear right?

Yeah he is in the clear.  He only knew the others were drugging and raping women in the rooms he shared with them.  Thus far, no one accused him of doing itself himself.  

Okay cool. So it’s cool to have knowledge of and allow the rape of countless girls night after night and never say or do anything about it. As long as you come off cool in a wrestling doc.

Glad that’s cleared up.

From what I am seeing on this all, yeah, people seem to have no issues with RVD knowing about this shit because he traveled with the ECW guys who were known to do it, because he did not do it himself.

Then again, RVD was in a system where this behavior was normalized so is it really his fault for not challenging things? Likely complaints even to law enforcement would have been ignored. I mean when somebody called the cops on Raven for having a 15 year old Becky Bayless in his hotel room nothing happened outside of a chat with a cop. Raven talks a lot about this culture in his various shoots. Now he is totally clean, his views on things are changing and he is opening up more about all of this shit.

Again , sticking up for someone's nefarious actions on a plane in a documentary in a douchebag manner like Dreamer is WRONG.

Admitting on the same documentary that you allowed rape culture to take place mere feet away from you ... totally cool. The way the pendulum swings and picks and chooses who is going to be "brought down" by cancel culture is ridiculous. RVD might not have raped anyone but thats stupid reasoning considering Tommy Dreamer didn't rape anyone either yet he's being crucified.

What's really worse? Continuing to allow and standing idly by as the normalization of the rape of underage girls becomes a thing or douchily sticking up for a well known perverted Ric Flair?

Here's a thought RVD - as you're watching one of your boys dropping an H-Bomb in a girls drink , maybe I don't know ... intervene as you know what happens next. Dude is pretty much complicit.

Sure and during this time I can see many turning a blind eye to not get on the boys bad sides or lose their spot. It takes a noble kinda person to risk their livelihood like that. Then again most ECW guys weren't getting paid...

Psych studies found time and time in systems like this people will not take action. Retrospective reviews on systems like this show that people who do try to challenge the system more often than not get removed from the system, in the case of wrestling fired for speaking up, and the system does not change. I mean how many girls spoke out, only to end up unemployed with major psych issues from the "pranks" they endured?

People love to blame the boys for this action, but the people who should be targeted are the road agents and talent relation guys and owners. These people at any time could have said if you keep this shit up you are fired, but they did not. And most of them did it themselves I would bet since these guys are commonly wrestlers themselves.

Meanwhile we get guys like Taker trashing the modern wrestlers for playing video games rather than going out to bars fighting the locals or drugging women.

I mean, this was old wrestling culture:

A Bischoff story.

"On seeing Steiner in the locker room for the first time: “So I go into this room, this big room where the guys are dressing. And I see both Steiners, Rick and Scott, have a referee. And for the life of me, I’m not sure who it was. I wanna say it was Nick Patrick, but I could be wrong. But anyway, they had this referee, and they had him duct taped up like a mummy. They had duct tape around his mouth, his hands were duct taped to the sides of his hips and his legs. His feet were duct taped together. And he was buck-ass naked and had a pencil stuck up his ass. And I thought, ‘Wow. This is gonna be a hell of a gig.’ [laughs] That’s my first recall of the Steiner Brothers. And I’m sure the referee, whoever it was, whether it was Nick Patrick or whoever, must have done something that the Steiners found worthy of some sort of Steiner Retribution. But they tortured him. It was, all I wanna say, in good fun for those who were watching. [laughs] Who knows what he did to deserve such a response. I’m not sure, I didn’t see it. I just saw the aftermath, and I thought, ‘Man. I’m gonna be really careful around these two guys.'”

You think if you spoke out in this environment that people would have given a fuck?

You draw some weird bullshit lines c. Black and white when you want it to be but then you find the gray areas.

I genuinely don’t care about the studies. I think it’s laughable to use the excuse that RVD “didn’t actually rape anyone” as a defense in a thread killing Dreamer who also didn’t rape anyone.

The very fact that so many people came out of that documentary killing Dreamer and praising RVD proves y’all are hypocrites and marks. You’re no better than the WWF you want to shit all over for giving Flair a legends pass when y’all are giving RVD and legends pass because he did cooler moves in a wrestling ring than Dreamer.

Also do I think that if RVD would have said something that anyone might have listened? Probably not. That doesn’t fucking excuse allowing the rape of underage girls to happen as you watch it transpire.

You realize that EVERY SINGLE wrestler and person involved in wrestling during this era knew this was going on right?

Hell, most of the fans knew this was going on as wrestlers always had reps of getting girls fucked up and sleeping with them.

No one spoke out because the system was there. What people are doing is crucifying people on the lower rungs of the system and allowing people like Vince and his inner circle who could have stopped this at any time, going on punished. If this is the action people want hey, all good on you. But I would want to punish those who created the system first, as they allowed everyone to act the way they did. Hitting the guys who acted within the system that was in place just seems really silly to me as it allows the system to continue. While WWE and AEW no longer allow this shit, it is still very common in most other wrestling places to this day.

Well as long as everyone knew it was happening , that makes it okay. You’re right. RVD is a saint.

Sept 19, 2021 16:23:26 GMT UT said:

Also do I think that if RVD would have said something that anyone might have listened? Probably not. That doesn’t fucking excuse allowing the rape of underage girls to happen as you watch it transpire.

OK who would you have told?  Lets say you are RVD in ECW, who do you tell?  Paul?  He does not care, he bringing in drugs for guys and know about all this shit.  It is just the boys being the boys.  Call the cops?  Raven with Bayless showed they do not really care.  Do you go all hung ho and tell the boys it is wrong?  You will be rapidly fired and unhirable.  Go to the media?  Will need proof you will not likely be able to get.  And wrestlers getting girls wasted and fucking them is not a story, it is just wrestling as in 2001 it was just assumed they were all taking drugs.  Also remember the year would be 2001, not 2021.   People really are not giving a shit about date rape as society was still blaming women for drinking drinks that could have the potential for being spiked, rather than the people spiking them.  

So what could you realistically do to make change?  

And I do not really care either way in this.  I was just pointing out that RVD was part of the system that allowed this, so claiming he was clear or a good guy as many are is pretty myopic.

Sept 19, 2021 13:15:06 GMT UT said:

Sept 19, 2021 13:12:04 GMT c said:

Yeah he is in the clear.  He only knew the others were drugging and raping women in the rooms he shared with them.  Thus far, no one accused him of doing itself himself.  

Okay cool. So it’s cool to have knowledge of and allow the rape of countless girls night after night and never say or do anything about it. As long as you come off cool in a wrestling doc.

Glad that’s cleared up.

Culture has changed but I agree with you. The other part is if you ratted on a guy, much less a high prolific guy, you would get devoured in the locker room at that day and age. Forget pranks, we're talking the Chris Benoit's, the JBL's, the Bob Holly's lighting you up, especially as an 'outsider' like RVD was at that point. These are grown men and they should be accountable for themselves, especially at Ric Flair's age. 

You do care because you’re making excuses and absolving someone of taking part in rape culture. Maybe not directly but he just plodded along because he had to main event that bingo hall … bro.

I don’t care what the end result is , I don’t care who listens or if it makes a difference any man with an iota of character stands up and says something , does SOMETHING. I’m not saying it was RVDs job to fix rape culture but just because him stepping in or speaking out may have not changed the ECW landscape backstage doesn’t mean his complacency is any less damning.

Sept 19, 2021 17:02:21 GMT Blindy said:

Sept 19, 2021 13:15:06 GMT UT said:

Okay cool. So it’s cool to have knowledge of and allow the rape of countless girls night after night and never say or do anything about it. As long as you come off cool in a wrestling doc.

Glad that’s cleared up.

Culture has changed but I agree with you. The other part is if you ratted on a guy, much less a high prolific guy, you would get devoured in the locker room at that day and age. Forget pranks, we're talking the Chris Benoit's, the JBL's, the Bob Holly's lighting you up, especially as an 'outsider' like RVD was at that point. These are grown men and they should be accountable for themselves, especially at Ric Flair's age. 

… yes grown men should be but when they aren’t that doesn’t mean a good man does nothing.

Who would you rat to is the question. All of the feds knew this was going on as it would happen to the female workers in the fed itself, and they took no action. 

It is easy to rage into the void, but the void does not care how many people scream into it if there is no action.  Me typing how wrong this was on a forum of 100 people is not going to make change in any meaningful manner.  And I have taken real action elsewhere in my life to change things, raising 20k with my group for a rape center, calling out my local school district in a large town meeting for covering up student rapes and going on TV and speaking out against UNC for covering up assaults on female students.  These actions have meaning to me.  Raging against wrestling culture online does not.



I suspect a few people are fearing Alundra Blayze now, as she plans to blow this whole thing up in her book it is said.

Sept 19, 2021 17:05:42 GMT UT said:

Sept 19, 2021 17:02:21 GMT Blindy said:

Culture has changed but I agree with you. The other part is if you ratted on a guy, much less a high prolific guy, you would get devoured in the locker room at that day and age. Forget pranks, we're talking the Chris Benoit's, the JBL's, the Bob Holly's lighting you up, especially as an 'outsider' like RVD was at that point. These are grown men and they should be accountable for themselves, especially at Ric Flair's age. 

… yes grown men should be but when they aren’t that doesn’t mean a good man does nothing.

That's on security or the people on the flight who are to protect the attendants or people who are security on behalf of the wrestlers. Would I like to see RVD go gung ho and attack everybody who did something wrong on the plane? Sure. But who knows if he was high as fuck or on painkillers himself or if the ramifications would have been worth it to slap Ric on the wrist. Or Hall. Or whoever else.

Sept 19, 2021 17:08:19 GMT c said:

Who would you rat to is the question. All of the feds knew this was going on as it would happen to the female workers in the fed itself, and they took no action. 

It is easy to rage into the void, but the void does not care how many people scream into it if there is no action.  Me typing how wrong this was on a forum of 100 people is not going to make change in any meaningful manner.  And I have taken real action elsewhere in my life to change things, raising 20k with my group for a rape center, calling out my local school district in a large town meeting for covering up student rapes and going on TV and speaking out against UNC for covering up assaults on female students.  These actions have meaning to me.  Raging against wrestling culture online does not.



I suspect a few people are fearing Alundra Blayze now, as she plans to blow this whole thing up in her book it is said.

You’re right. Only raging against interviews on wrestling docs matters.

Well here is the big question, are you planning to watch any wrestling programs? If so you are still contributing to this system yourself. Every fed has people involved who supported this rape culture that fans then finically support by watching.

I know I do not plan to stop watching and accept that I am contributing in a minor way to this. Most people seem to think they are not however.

Lol. Okay c.

Isn't that what metoo has been about? EVERYONE knew about it and brushed it off. Wrestling had one with speakingout, but since it was indy scrubs nobody cared. Maybe it's time wrestling had a real one.

But wrestling culture in AEW and WWE for the most part already changed. Still carny rules in many small feds, but even there people are not so cool with this shit. So what is the point really now? People will still cheer Flair when he comes into AEW or TNA, still watch the shows, and still support the people who could have taken action but did not.  The limit to what action they will take against these people is complaining online and hoping sponsors do something.  And sponsors will pull from a person but after 30 to 90 days it is considered forgotten and they will reoffer whatever deal was cancelled silently.   

UT, I work at a mine; about 90% male employees. During my first day, in the orientation the safety officer was being misogynistic and making terrible comments about women during a safety presentation while a female HR employee was present. Me and a new engineer hire made several comments about it to each other. Should I have called him out in public in front of everyone? Should I have risked my new job and said something to his supervisor? What should I have done?