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Post by Ness on Oct 16, 2020 19:29:05 GMT
If you gotta bring in Lionheart to support your movement, you've already lost!
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Post by Lionheart on Oct 16, 2020 20:48:10 GMT
Yeah, UT was just trying to make a point with that question to paint Mean Girls critics as arrogant fools. But I have been summoned so I will respond anyway! Yeah I was joking really, of course it counts - just a surprise! It's twice the film Forrest Gump is anyway! But The Irishman is better than both. The Irishmen is trash. Well trash is harsh but it accomplishes about 60% of what it intended. First, this is like the third random hitjob on Irishman I've seen UT make. I've been ignoring them as I have not seen Irishman, but I am really starting to question why he hates it so much. I am interested to know on what grounds you think it failed to accomplish what it intended, or how you even possibly know what Scorsese's intention was. It seems you just didn't like it and are mad because you think he attacked Marvel. Coincidentally enough though, it was a statement very similar to "this is not a Top 100 movie" that he made about Marvel movies. I wonder what quantifies a “Top 100” movie. Can it only be prestige movies? Long winded masterpieces? Why can’t there be room for an incredibly popular teen comedy that has forever engrained itself into the pop culture lexicon. I mean it didn’t make my list either but I don’t find it egregious that it showed up at #99. I stand by my stance that a movie like Mean Girls is better than a lot of pseudo prestige films. Films like say.... The Irishmen. I don't think anyone is really saying Mean Girls doesn't deserve to place on this list. I recall finding it pretty funny and it's not like it's any worse than a lot movies placing (like Step Brothers). It makes sense that a couple people would have had it high on their lists. The issue is just with the principle of the statement "Mean Girls is one of the best 100 movies ever made" sounding completely ridiculous. There's not room for it because there's only room for 100 movies. Of course, this is just assuming movies are ranked based on "film school criteria" as Emperor called it, which they aren't. So I'm only saying it to express some lighthearted outrage. Pop culture has close to zero relevance on a list if it were indeed based on objective qualities, but of course it has tons of relevance for what this list actually is.
And I am fine with this list being what it is. I'm still going to complain about Mean Girls placing though because that is my job. The long-winded masterpieces deserve more representation! Down with Mean Girls! They are mean!
Though really, I don't think you should act like this viewpoint is some pretentious thing. These qualities are measurable and real. No one would ever say the acting performances in Mean Girls take their breath away with awe. But there are at least 100 movies that do that. That's all the statement "not a top 100 movie" means.
The stance that Mean Girls is "better" that you have is totally fine, as all that really means is that you enjoyed it more. Nothing wrong with that. No one is faulting you for being a pervert.
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Post by 🤯 on Oct 16, 2020 21:38:02 GMT
There are quite a few movies listed already I would easily take over Mean Girls. Like Armageddon! Or Armageddon! ... Mean Girls made my list. UT nailed it with his concise description. Excellently written. Resonated too as it came out close enough to my high school experience that it felt way more like "my" high school movie than any of that John Hughes bullshit, or even Can't Hardly Wait. Speaking of being perverted... Goes without saying it would've benefitted from tits, right? Lohan's, McAdams', the blonde's, the brunette's, even Fey's and Poehler's and ugly version of Lizzy Caplan. Would've totally tolerated seeing Tim Meadows' Woods wood too.
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Post by mikec on Oct 16, 2020 21:46:52 GMT
Wait are we doing this one movie per day? I can’t wait till January for this to end!
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 1:00:13 GMT
Wait are we doing this one movie per day? I can’t wait till January for this to end! No I’ll pick up the pace on most days.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 1:32:16 GMT
Yeah, UT was just trying to make a point with that question to paint Mean Girls critics as arrogant fools. But I have been summoned so I will respond anyway! The Irishmen is trash. Well trash is harsh but it accomplishes about 60% of what it intended. First, this is like the third random hitjob on Irishman I've seen UT make. I've been ignoring them as I have not seen Irishman, but I am really starting to question why he hates it so much. I am interested to know on what grounds you think it failed to accomplish what it intended, or how you even possibly know what Scorsese's intention was. It seems you just didn't like it and are mad because you think he attacked Marvel. Coincidentally enough though, it was a statement very similar to "this is not a Top 100 movie" that he made about Marvel movies. I wonder what quantifies a “Top 100” movie. Can it only be prestige movies? Long winded masterpieces? Why can’t there be room for an incredibly popular teen comedy that has forever engrained itself into the pop culture lexicon. I mean it didn’t make my list either but I don’t find it egregious that it showed up at #99. I stand by my stance that a movie like Mean Girls is better than a lot of pseudo prestige films. Films like say.... The Irishmen. I don't think anyone is really saying Mean Girls doesn't deserve to place on this list. I recall finding it pretty funny and it's not like it's any worse than a lot movies placing (like Step Brothers). It makes sense that a couple people would have had it high on their lists. The issue is just with the principle of the statement "Mean Girls is one of the best 100 movies ever made" sounding completely ridiculous. There's not room for it because there's only room for 100 movies. Of course, this is just assuming movies are ranked based on "film school criteria" as Emperor called it, which they aren't. So I'm only saying it to express some lighthearted outrage. Pop culture has close to zero relevance on a list if it were indeed based on objective qualities, but of course it has tons of relevance for what this list actually is. And I am fine with this list being what it is. I'm still going to complain about Mean Girls placing though because that is my job. The long-winded masterpieces deserve more representation! Down with Mean Girls! They are mean! Though really, I don't think you should act like this viewpoint is some pretentious thing. These qualities are measurable and real. No one would ever say the acting performances in Mean Girls take their breath away with awe. But there are at least 100 movies that do that. That's all the statement "not a top 100 movie" means. The stance that Mean Girls is "better" that you have is totally fine, as all that really means is that you enjoyed it more. Nothing wrong with that. No one is faulting you for being a pervert.
My post was rhetorical , I really didn't need to see your longwinded post defending longwinded movies. I don't believe for a second that there are completely objective ways to judge movies , if there were we then there would be no point in making a list or discussion threads because we would already have the answers. And my Irishmen hate isn't really personal with Scorsese or his take on Marvel movies. It's just the movie TO ME that is most evocative of the kind of shit I hate in movie discussions. Yes it's really well crafted and has great actors and ticks all the boxes on movie critics boxes but my truth is that what does all that matter if it results in an incredibly long and boring movie that I would never want to subject myself to again? Movies are entertainment , they should be entertaining first and foremost IMO. Don't get me wrong , I really do love discussing merits and all the boring shit involved in movies. It's why these countdowns ever became a thing for me - but I also hate the idea that only certain types of movies belong on the list , or any list of greatest , because at the end of the day there is no criteria for greatest movie of all time because everyone has their own scale. For my money , and they will come up on the list , I think there are like four or five "perfect" movies ever made. I say that because they check all my boxes of being brilliantly executed , written , acted , directed whilst also checking the boxes of being entertaining making a splash in the movie industry. And yes a movies place in pop culture history absolutely matters in the conversation of best of all time. If a movie doesn't have resonance , especially across generations or doesn't make it's way into pop culture then who cares? The seven people who've seen it?
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Post by Baker on Oct 17, 2020 1:53:12 GMT
Wait are we doing this one movie per day? I can’t wait till January for this to end! No I’ll pick up the pace on most days. Boo! Keep it going til January.
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Post by Lionheart on Oct 17, 2020 3:55:15 GMT
My post was rhetorical , I really didn't need to see your longwinded post defending longwinded movies. I don't believe for a second that there are completely objective ways to judge movies , if there were we then there would be no point in making a list or discussion threads because we would already have the answers. I also don't believe there are completely objective ways to judge them. Most science is not exact either. The best you can do is approximate it and give it your best guess. Just like with measuring physical distance, it's impossible to know exactly how far it is but you can get something pretty close. And my Irishmen hate isn't really personal with Scorsese or his take on Marvel movies. It's just the movie TO ME that is most evocative of the kind of shit I hate in movie discussions. Yes it's really well crafted and has great actors and ticks all the boxes on movie critics boxes but my truth is that what does all that matter if it results in an incredibly long and boring movie that I would never want to subject myself to again? Movies are entertainment , they should be entertaining first and foremost IMO. You hate movies being really well crafted and having great actors? I guess you just mean you hate the lack of entertainment value on top of that, but that's fine if it doesn't entertain you. Some people are entertained by that though and don't find it boring (though in this case that is likely the minority). Nothing wrong with that. I doubt Scorsese set out to do something not entertaining. He probably thought it was entertaining. Don't get me wrong , I really do love discussing merits and all the boring shit involved in movies. It's why these countdowns ever became a thing for me - but I also hate the idea that only certain types of movies belong on the list , or any list of greatest , because at the end of the day there is no criteria for greatest movie of all time because everyone has their own scale. Indeed, and my scale is that Mean Girls is nowhere near a top 100 movie. For my money , and they will come up on the list , I think there are like four or five "perfect" movies ever made. I say that because they check all my boxes of being brilliantly executed , written , acted , directed whilst also checking the boxes of being entertaining making a splash in the movie industry. I think there are way more than four or five "near-perfect" movies (nothing is perfect). I have around 90 on my list that are close enough that I wouldn't really try to distinguish between them. And yes a movies place in pop culture history absolutely matters in the conversation of best of all time. If a movie doesn't have resonance , especially across generations or doesn't make it's way into pop culture then who cares? The seven people who've seen it? Yes. Or in my case, all that really matters is that I've seen it. A large amount of people happening to like a particular movie couldn't matter less for my Top 100. I form my own opinion. I'm sure you don't give equally as much of a shit about a movie that is super popular that you don't find that good. And you wouldn't place it on your list either. These are all personal lists, after all.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 4:03:02 GMT
So on Wednesdays we wear pink.
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Post by 🤯 on Oct 17, 2020 13:14:48 GMT
So on Wednesdays we wear pink. Lionheart keeps trying to make "Fetch" happen. Someone stop him.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 13:27:24 GMT
So on Wednesdays we wear pink. Lionheart keeps trying to make "Fetch" happen. Someone stop him. He doesn't even go to these boards! And clearly I don't rate my movies of their popularity overall , but if one is making a definitive overall , an actual greatest list (not our list on PW) then it should matter.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 13:42:48 GMT
Fury Road was my #85 and I'm not really shocked it placed on the #100 as this seems to be the run of movies that have all appeared a ton and Fury Road is no different. It placed at or near the top of every list it qualified for.
It's just one of the most fun and intense movie experiences I had in a long time when I seen it the first time. I fell in love with it , with Furiosa , with Nux and with the overall aesthetic and lightning pace of the movie. And have already went back to watch it numerous times.
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Post by Emperor on Oct 17, 2020 14:00:49 GMT
Not my cup of tea.
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Post by Ness on Oct 17, 2020 14:04:19 GMT
Fury Road is one of those surprisingly good movies. I say that because online it was being shat on pretty hard. Obviously it was certain community slant, labeling it "feminist propaganda", which kinda came around the same time as Ghostbusters 2016 was in development so I bought into it a little bit. Turned out to be good. Really good. Dunno if this was a one-off or if the other Mad Max properties are any good, but this came outta nowhere for me.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 14:06:11 GMT
You’ve seen it right? I can’t remember if you had a review.
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Post by 🤯 on Oct 17, 2020 14:14:33 GMT
Fury Road is one of those surprisingly good movies. I say that because online it was being shat on pretty hard. Obviously it was certain community slant, labeling it "feminist propaganda", which kinda came around the same time as Ghostbusters 2016 was in development so I bought into it a little bit. Turned out to be good. Really good. Dunno if this was a one-off or if the other Mad Max properties are any good, but this came outta nowhere for me. Different but definitely worth checking out the one that started it all as well as Road Warrior. If those both float your boat, then I suppose no harm in checking out Beyond Thunderdome.
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Post by Ness on Oct 17, 2020 14:57:58 GMT
So ...Hollywood is the only blindspot in my QT viewing, and that's mostly because it's priced at DVD price for an Amazon rental so I'm in no rush. While I certainly expected a few in the top 100... wonder if it's that good because I heard mixed ratings on this one. We'll see. One day.
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Post by Lionheart on Oct 17, 2020 15:17:52 GMT
If it were truly a definitive top 100 "best" list then you could include influence / popularity as a factor, sure. I still wouldn't. I basically feel that something happening to catch on and gain iconic status is a bit of a gamble and could happen to anything, regardless of quality. It also can have a lot to do with marketing. Tons of great movies go unnoticed. Any list is already going to be biased towards more popular movies just because more people have seen them...no reason to stack the deck even further.
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Post by Lionheart on Oct 17, 2020 15:30:12 GMT
Oh, on that note...funny story. When visiting my wife's family in Indonesia one year, they were watching a bunch of movies on TV. Some of them kind of looked at me and nodded as they were playing, like I knew what was up. They were all American movies, which was surprising to me. Like the third movie in, I finally gave in and blurted out: "What movie is this? And what were those other two movies anyway?" The room fell silent. Everyone was shocked. My wife replies "You don't know this movie? But it's an American classic..."
I was incredibly confused. I thought this might be another "crow Sting" moment on my part...but this was not the case. I looked up the movies and all three had garbage reviews (like under 20% ratings) and not even that many votes on IMDB. I looked up what was happening. It turns out, the TV stations of many countries can't afford any popular movies, so they purchase lifetime rights to play the B movies that no one in America even wants that they are desperate to sell somewhere to try and make some money.
So all the great movies that we have that play on TV here, all the classics, they don't have any of those. They have a completely different set of American movies that they think are American classics and that everyone there loves and adores, that are ingrained into their culture because they play on TV so often. I felt some of these movies had been treated unfairly, granted, and were actually great despite the low ratings. So it's nice that they have a place somewhere in the world. But it's very interesting to see how exposure can shape the idea of what a movie is for a whole country.
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Post by 🤯 on Oct 17, 2020 15:46:09 GMT
This explains so much... Lionheart's wife is mail order from Indonesia!
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Post by Strobe on Oct 17, 2020 16:00:09 GMT
Die Hard with a Vengeance is the one I saw first and have seen the most as well. I assume it was cheaper for TV channels to buy the rights to show sequels. I also saw Beverly Hills Cop III, Back to the Future Part III and Poltergeist 2 first, and have seen those the most often, and they all hold a certain special place in my heart as a result, even though they are not close to the originals. And yes a movies place in pop culture history absolutely matters in the conversation of best of all time. If a movie doesn't have resonance , especially across generations or doesn't make it's way into pop culture then who cares? The seven people who've seen it? This did not matter at all in my list, discounting the fact that I (like everyone) is more likely to see films that are famous. The list I submitted was my personal list of what I think are the 100 best films that I have ever seen. If I was making a Mount Rushmore Top 100, then obviously it would be a massive factor. Now, absolutely films enter pop culture most often due to popularity and clearly more are likely to love such films and rank them highly, giving them a spot on a list like this.
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Post by Ness on Oct 17, 2020 16:07:19 GMT
This explains so much... Lionheart 's wife is mail order from Indonesia! The real reason he knows all those weird asian films. He wasn't genuinely interested, it was that or he doesn't get his once a month cuddle session.
Phew. Now all my questions have answers.
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Post by Emperor on Oct 17, 2020 16:10:09 GMT
You’ve seen it right? I can’t remember if you had a review. I have seen it, or as much as I could stomach. I don't remember if I wrote a review or not but I can't imagine it would have been very interesting. I just found it incredibly boring. It's basically a glorified car chase through a desert with some steampunk aesthetic, and I really don't like car chases most of the time. Not really into post-apocalyptic settings either. The story has to be something really special for a film like this to please me, and Tom Hardy grunting his way through the plot while strong independent woman does things is not really good enough for me. If it were truly a definitive top 100 "best" list then you could include influence / popularity as a factor, sure. I still wouldn't. I basically feel that something happening to catch on and gain iconic status is a bit of a gamble and could happen to anything, regardless of quality. It also can have a lot to do with marketing. Tons of great movies go unnoticed. Any list is already going to be biased towards more popular movies just because more people have seen them...no reason to stack the deck even further. Great point, I never thought of it like that before. Especially that tons of great movies have gone unnoticed. Word of mouth and marketing are extremely powerful.
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Post by Emperor on Oct 17, 2020 16:31:29 GMT
If I were to extend my shortlist, I imagine Once Upon a Time in Hollywood would sit in the 100-150 position, probably at the lower end.
Most of the film is really good. Leo was great but I think Brad Pitt stole the show, amazing character and every scene of his was money. Only negative is that Margot Robbie's arc didn't seem to have any point to it that I could gather, by the end of the movie I was wondering why all those scenes happened and I still don't know the answer.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 17:04:42 GMT
Die Hard with a Vengeance is the one I saw first and have seen the most as well. I assume it was cheaper for TV channels to buy the rights to show sequels. I also saw Beverly Hills Cop III, Back to the Future Part III and Poltergeist 2 first, and have seen those the most often, and they all hold a certain special place in my heart as a result, even though they are not close to the originals. And yes a movies place in pop culture history absolutely matters in the conversation of best of all time. If a movie doesn't have resonance , especially across generations or doesn't make it's way into pop culture then who cares? The seven people who've seen it? This did not matter at all in my list, discounting the fact that I (like everyone) is more likely to see films that are famous. The list I submitted was my personal list of what I think are the 100 best films that I have ever seen. If I was making a Mount Rushmore Top 100, then obviously it would be a massive factor. Now, absolutely films enter pop culture most often due to popularity and clearly more are likely to love such films and rank them highly, giving them a spot on a list like this. I went favorites as well , but I don’t distinguish between favorite and greatest. They are one of the same to me.
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Post by Strobe on Oct 17, 2020 18:26:35 GMT
Only negative is that Margot Robbie's arc didn't seem to have any point to it that I could gather, by the end of the movie I was wondering why all those scenes happened and I still don't know the answer. It is definitely an issue with the film to a large number of people. I watched it in the cinema with a bunch of colleagues and only one other knew about Sharon Tate. It feel like Tarantino and his bubble of pop culture got the better of him and he just assumed everyone knows about the Manson Family, Polanski and Tate. If you know the story of Sharon Tate, then her scenes do work. You are watching her just chilling, going to the cinema to watch herself on the big screen, all the while slowly heading towards her demise. In a standard film, you'd show the villains discussing a specific plot early, alongside the scenes of the potential victim, to instil the tension and dread. Tarantino is assuming the audience has prior knowledge to generate that. Most of the people I was watching it with didn't even know that "Charlie" was Charles Manson. Once Upon is a good film, but close to #500 on my mega-list.
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Post by Strobe on Oct 17, 2020 23:00:34 GMT
Fury Road was my #38. Incredible filmmaking. No more recent film finished ahead of it. Mad Max is good, Mad Max 2/The Road Warrior is fantastic and was close to making it (#128). The Bartertown stuff in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome is great, the Lost Boys stuff is not. You don't need to see the original really, so if pressed for time, I'd recommend people to watch Road Warrior and Fury Road. And maybe Thunderdome, but just stop when they leave Bartertown. Is there a film series that has influenced pro wrestling more? The Road Warriors and all the subsequent rip-offs. Sid and Bull Buchanan among others as Lord Humongous. Jericho took Humungous' Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla nickname. Nash in the Master Blasters team. Thunderdome inspiring War Games, Thunderdome (duh), Chamber of Horrors matches, which could be argued to have led to Hell in a Cell and Elimination Chamber matches. Spin the Wheel, Make a Deal as well. Mad Maxine, who wrestled twice around Mania I and was set to feud with Richter as Moolah's new protege before she abruptly left. Broken Matt Hardy looks like Toe Cutter from the first Mad Max. Then pro wrestling gave back to Mad Max with Nathan Jones starring in Fury Road. And before I forget, since Emperor mentioned it in the other thread, Theatrical Cut > Final Cut > Redux for Apocalypse Now. Watch theatrical if you can. EDIT: And I am going to steal Lionheart's gimmick, but Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is spectacularly not a top 100 film of all time. Surprised to see it rank. That definitely feels like it is getting recency bias, unlike Parasite, which is actually great.
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Post by PB on Oct 17, 2020 23:25:58 GMT
Neither of the last two made my list but I love them both.
I definitely like Fury Road less than the people who really love it, like Strobe. Like to be it's baffling that it's his 38 given how many films he has seen, but there are many genuine cinephiles who hold it that highly. For me, I wish it was just that little bit braver and had no dialogue at all. I think you totally got what was going in just through the visuals and the music and the dialogue didn't work as well. But it's still an incredible achievement and just a really great testament to one man's vision and determination that it happened at all. It's this incredible feat of visual story-telling that is exciting and challenging and visceral. I had few expectations going into at as I hadn't seen any of the previous films since I was a kid, but it really did blow me away in how captivated I was by the whole thing. And it isn't just spectacle, but there's plenty to think about, even beyond the surface level obvious things. I'm due a rewatch though as I haven't seen it since it was in the cinema.
OUATIH is my second favourite Tarantino and it's not even close. I think a huge part of it is the really good mood I was in when I saw it, but I thought, despite the run-time, it was his most disciplined film in a long time. (Though you could still cut some stuff fairly easily. Like Bruce Lee.) I think what Strobe said about needing a bit of knowledge of the events beforehand is definitely true. When Sharon Tate is on screen, it's showing her living a normal life, and you should be having this feeling of dread at seeing someone who loves life with real fervour, and whose career is taking off, and she's just going about normal routine things with real joy - knowing that it's about to be taken away from her. Her scenes are to build that dread, which if you didn't know it wouldn't have that impact. And then of course, the ending rewrites her story. She's the only person in the film who isn't a Tarantino character at all, and in many ways her scenes are to show what Sharon Tate's life might have been like, instead of focusing on her death, which is what she's really known for now. There's a great interview between Paul Thomas Anderson and Tarantino talking about this that I thought was fascinating. I think Brad Pitt is at his best here, and it feels like a role written for him so perfectly. And even though it is violent and gritty to an extent, it felt more optimistic and hopeful than most Tarantino films which I think is why is resonated with me more than most of his films do.
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Post by UT on Oct 17, 2020 23:32:54 GMT
Fury Road was my #38. Incredible filmmaking. No more recent film finished ahead of it. Mad Max is good, Mad Max 2/The Road Warrior is fantastic and was close to making it (#128). The Bartertown stuff in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome is great, the Lost Boys stuff is not. You don't need to see the original really, so if pressed for time, I'd recommend people to watch Road Warrior and Fury Road. And maybe Thunderdome, but just stop when they leave Bartertown. Is there a film series that has influenced pro wrestling more? The Road Warriors and all the subsequent rip-offs. Sid and Bull Buchanan among others as Lord Humongous. Jericho took Humungous' Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla nickname. Nash in the Master Blasters team. Thunderdome inspiring War Games, Thunderdome (duh), Chamber of Horrors matches, which could be argued to have led to Hell in a Cell and Elimination Chamber matches. Spin the Wheel, Make a Deal as well. Mad Maxine, who wrestled twice around Mania I and was set to feud with Richter as Moolah's new protege before she abruptly left. Broken Matt Hardy looks like Toe Cutter from the first Mad Max. Then pro wrestling gave back to Mad Max with Nathan Jones starring in Fury Road. And before I forget, since Emperor mentioned it in the other thread, Theatrical Cut > Final Cut > Redux for Apocalypse Now. Watch theatrical if you can. EDIT: And I am going to steal Lionheart's gimmick, but Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is spectacularly not a top 100 film of all time. Surprised to see it rank. That definitely feels like it is getting recency bias, unlike Parasite, which is actually great. Love this post and find it awesome and surprising you had it that high. Nothing you said was wrong and it was an incredible achievement - I feel like I jipped it in my rankings now.
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Post by Emperor on Oct 17, 2020 23:57:29 GMT
Seeing all the praise everyone is heaping on Fury Road takes me back to this quote: Yes it's really well crafted and has great actors and ticks all the boxes on movie critics boxes but my truth is that what does all that matter if it results in an incredibly long and boring movie that I would never want to subject myself to again? Movies are entertainment , they should be entertaining first and foremost IMO. Appreciate that Fury Road is incredibly well made, very visual and gritty, but for me I couldn't connect with any of the characters, any of the story, so it just wasn't entertaining.
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