Was transferring files to a new laptop and found the old PW Bret Hart 30 Point Rating System results.

The Bret Hart 30 Point Rating System (as described in his memoir) works like this:

Look: 1-10
Promo: 1-10
In Ring: 1-10

30 is the best a wrestler can be, 3 is the worst.

As done 2016/2017ish, every few days I nominated a new group of wrestlers, 8-14 people in HOW would rate them based on that criteria, until a fairly comprehensive amount of wrestlers over the past 30 years were rated.

These were the results

SPOILER: Click to show

{Old Results}
Ric Flair 27
Stone Cold Steve Austin 26.7
Kurt Angle 26.7
Macho Man Randy Savage 26.4
The Rock 25.1
Eddie Guerrero 25.1
Mr. Perfect 25
Rick Rude 24.8
Bret Hart 24.5
Chris Jericho 24.2
HBK 24
Hulk Hogan 23.8
Scott Hall 23.6
John Cena 23.1
AJ Styles 22.9
The Undertaker 22.7
Daniel Bryan 22.5
Mankind 22.3
Ted DiBiase 22
Harley Race 21.9
Sting 21.9
Vader 21.8
Jake Roberts 21.8
Ricky Steamboat 21.8
Brock Lesnar 21.2
Samoa Joe 20.8
Batista 20.5
CM Punk 20.1
Kevin Owens 20.1
Magnum TA 19.9
Seth Rollins 19.9
Kevin Nash 19.8
Lex Luger 19.7
Chris Benoit 19.6
Rowdy Roddy Piper 19.5
Goldberg 19.4
Tully Blanchard 19.3
Chris Daniels 19.2
Edge 18.8
The Ultimate Warrior 18.7
Rey Mysterio Jr. 18.4
DDP 18.1
Austin Aries 17.9
Roman Reigns 17.9
Sheamus 17.3
Randy Orton 16.9
Dean Malenko 16.6
Dean Ambrose 15.8
Andre the Giant 15.2
Yokozuna 13.6

I remember this being a lot of work, so I'm not doing it again, merely want to use this as a springboard to get people thinking about this quirky rating system again, which old results seem egregious now, who you think is the best by this criteria, or who is unfairly penalized by its limitations, and so on.

Well, Jericho fell off in the look department.

Jul 5, 2021 5:35:54 GMT Shootist said:

Well, Jericho fell off in the look department.

Remember him at his best!

I wonder what the response was to Andre? I can't see The Big Show scoring less than 15 and it doesn't feel right to say he's better than Andre.

I'm guessing Bret Hart was a 15 then.

Look - 5
Promo - 0
Ring work - 10

Jul 5, 2021 6:24:04 GMT Big Pete said:

I wonder what the response was to Andre? I can't see The Big Show scoring less than 15 and it doesn't feel right to say he's better than Andre.

Andre was pretty much 10's across the board on look and bad on In Ring and Promo (minus one anomaly that had him bad on look too), which seems fair (although his prime In Ring was obviously better, but before most people ever saw him). Just a bad system for Andre to flourish in.

The biggest flaw in the system is being exceptional in any of the three categories is mostly greater than being solid in all three in real life, and this system would probably favor the solid guy more. I think Mr. Perfect is a good example of being great at none of the three categories, but very good in all three, so having a slightly inflated final rating.

Jul 5, 2021 6:56:36 GMT NATH45 said:

I'm guessing Bret Hart was a 15 then.

Look - 5
Promo - 0
Ring work - 10

"If I had to rate myself at that time, I’d say I had a good, muscular frame warranting about a seven. On mic skills I’d be lucky if I was a four. But on actual wrestling ability, I’d give myself a ten."

Bret Hart's rating of Bret Hart: 21
PW's rating of Bret Hart: 24.5

1997 often cited as a great year of promos for Bret, which I agree with. 

Print out PW for official references on the rasslin' resume.

Fergus "System" Ferguson
Look - 10 (especially based on that recent photo)
Promo - 10
Ring work - 10

Avatar of 🤯

Look- 1
Promo- 1
Ring Work- 1

Jul 5, 2021 14:12:22 GMT KING KID said:

Avatar of 🤯

Look- 1
Promo- 1
Ring Work- 1

Seriously, dafuq happened to my Brock!?

Jul 5, 2021 15:29:36 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 5, 2021 14:12:22 GMT KING KID said:

Avatar of 🤯

Look- 1
Promo- 1
Ring Work- 1

Seriously, dafuq happened to my Brock!?

He belongs to the streets. You can't tame him.

No but seriously I'm gonna make a thread and rank all the 1.1ers.

Might as well do the two biggest champs in the biz today then...

Roman Reigns
Look: 10
Promo: 7
In-Ring: 6
Total: 23 (old avg: 17.9)

Nothing to say about looks department. Reigns has it all, from his amazing physique to his simple yet effective ring gear to his incredible teeth.

Promo is average at best. He's improved over the years; would have given him a 4 or 5 just a couple years ago, but there's a reason Paul Heyman does all his talking for him.

In-Ring, maybe I'm a little harsh, but Reigns has a very limited move set and pretty much gets over on his speed and stamina only. It works for him, but if we're being honest it's nothing special.

...

Kenny Omega
Look: 9
Promo: 5
In-Ring: 10
Total: 24 (old avg: N/A)

I'm docking Omega a point on looks because of his hair. It's always been stupid and I don't know why he insists on looking like he sleeps in a box behind Daily's Place, BUT ONLY ON HIS HEAD.

Another person who has improved on promos in recent years, but still not anywhere near good enough. I would have given him a 2 or 3 pre-AEW. Again, Don Callis is a godsend for him.

In-Ring, not many better in the world today. Best active all-around wrestler on the planet if you ask me. He can do it all, do it well, and do it for a full 60. Everyone that steps into the ring with him comes out looking like a million bucks.

Reigns is a solid 10 in my book 💅🏻 💆🏼‍♀️

Surprised his ring work got so low (and Kenny's look so high... Canada bias!) as that seems to be constantly praised lately.

I'll follow RT's lead and play the game with two modern champions.

Roman Reigns
Look: 10
Promo: 7
In-Ring: 9
Total: 26

Back when he had the shield vest I'd have given his look an 8, but now he has one of the best looks of any current wrestler. Dude looks like a Greek god.

Currently Reigns is one of my favourite promos. Sure Heyman does a lot of his talking but he's very convincing as the Tribal Chief. Sadistic, ruthless, yet with a clear element of insecurity. I'd give him an 8 or 9 right now. However I can't discount the rest of his career where he's been an average promo at best, but not sure how much of that is because of awful writing/scripting.

I'm very high on Reigns in the ring and have been for years. Yes he has a limited moveset but he's masterful enough to get a lot out of it. His only flaw is that he spams the Superman punch too much. Brilliant seller, great at structuring matches, able to have great matches against a variety of opponents, uses his explosiveness and power to full effect.

...

Kenny Omega
Look: 7
Promo: 3
In-Ring: 8
Total: 18

Omega has a good look but not close to 10/10. His best look was The Cleaner look or Bullet Club leader when he had dark hair and dark tights. That's a 9/10 look. However he looks less good with light hair and ligher tights, and yes the hairstyle in general is goofy.

Promos have never been Kenny's strong point. He's had at least one great promo in AEW but as a rule he's pretty poor. He tends to overact and overenunciate, like a cartoon villain. Not the most eloquent speaker either. It's a shame because when he's not such a try-hard and speaks earnestly, he can be really good.

When Kenny was at his peak in NJPW I'd have given him an easy 10, but his run in AEW has showed me that Kenny is not the most versatile of workers. Even his recent AEW title defenses don't have that same awe-inspiring epic feel as his best bouts in NJPW.

25+ was super rare by the old tallies, so the best there is, was, ever will be, by the Bret Hart 30 Point Rating system.

What current wrestlers would rate 25+? Emperor has Reigns there. Anyone else? Does Reigns really belong?

Jul 5, 2021 17:03:00 GMT @ness said:

Surprised his ring work got so low (and Kenny's look so high... Canada bias!) as that seems to be constantly praised lately.

I did say I was probably being harsh and could probably go to 7. But I think a lot of the praise has been his storytelling, specifically with Jey Uso. Their matches were excellent and Roman's emoting was very well done.

Jul 5, 2021 20:28:50 GMT Kilgore said:

25+ was super rare by the old tallies, so the best there is, was, ever will be, by the Bret Hart 30 Point Rating system.

What current wrestlers would rate 25+? Emperor has Reigns there. Anyone else? Does Reigns really belong?

I had him on the cusp and I think that's fair. But I'm not gonna argue someone having him a point or two higher. He's really come into his own over the past few years.

The only wrestler active right now that I would give a 25 or higher to is Jay White. When I'm thinking about total package with look, promo and ring work, he's the first person that popped into my head and I can't think of a better example active right now.

I'm definitely going to do this for the NJPW wrestlers at some point.

Jul 5, 2021 21:57:53 GMT Emperor said:

I'm definitely going to do this for the NJPW wrestlers at some point.

Toru Yano first to reach 31 pts!

'In ring' is pretty subjective. I'd watch The Rock in his prime over Bret Hart purely for the excitement and charisma in his performances. And Austin was a punch-kick-Stunner type of worker, but his matches were always entertaining.

Jul 6, 2021 2:46:47 GMT NATH45 said:

'In ring' is pretty subjective. I'd watch The Rock in his prime over Bret Hart purely for the excitement and charisma in his performances. And Austin was a punch-kick-Stunner type of worker, but his matches were always entertaining.

I don't think either could have put on the match Bret did with Magee.

I also think there's a clear point of difference with the Sharpshooters so it'e easy to knock a point off for that alone.

At his peak, you could make a case for Austin being as good as Bret. However a lot of Austin's best work even during matches was out of the ring.

Jul 6, 2021 2:46:47 GMT NATH45 said:

'In ring' is pretty subjective. I'd watch The Rock in his prime over Bret Hart purely for the excitement and charisma in his performances. And Austin was a punch-kick-Stunner type of worker, but his matches were always entertaining.

Exactly, selling/psychology/storytelling all should be considered for rating.
Hulk Hogan is a prime example, his style worked for the time and he didn’t need to do much more because he was over.

Jul 6, 2021 7:15:16 GMT Big Pete said:

Jul 6, 2021 2:46:47 GMT NATH45 said:

'In ring' is pretty subjective. I'd watch The Rock in his prime over Bret Hart purely for the excitement and charisma in his performances. And Austin was a punch-kick-Stunner type of worker, but his matches were always entertaining.

I don't think either could have put on the match Bret did with Magee.

I also think there's a clear point of difference with the Sharpshooters so it'e easy to knock a point off for that alone.

At his peak, you could make a case for Austin being as good as Bret. However a lot of Austin's best work even during matches was out of the ring.

There's a potential to open that old 'worker v wrestler' debate. Dean Malenko or Lance Storm were excellent wrestlers, but Jericho was an excellent worker in the sense, as technically good as he was, he was able to better connect with and entertain the audience.

I've always argued, it's not necessarily what you do, but how you do it.

Sure, but I don't think Bret is a scientific wrestler. Bret was a visionary who would put together matches like a movie. His attention to detail and his ability to execute is what sets him a part from his contemporaries.

The only thing that makes judging in-ring difficult is that hardly any fans have experience in the ring to understand just how difficult certain spots are. It's like judging music, you can like what you hear but you won't really understand it unless you had years of experience and really developed a passion for it.

Of course that shouldn't stop anyone. I just think there is a craft to it that extends beyond personal taste.

In-ring is the most subjective thing I think. For some people, it's the ability to put sequences together, or hit moves cleanly, or provide a lot of action. For me, I just want to care. Selling is a huge part of it, along with conviction and believability. So to me, someone like Kenny Omega I find to be overrated, and someone like Mark Henry (in his title run when he was actually good) I find to be underrated. Promos and looks are far less subjective in my experience. There aren't many people going around saying the Rock is a bad promo or Roman Reigns looks like shit. Since everyone else has done the world champions, I'll join in:

Omega

Promo - 3
Look - 6
In-ring - 8

Total - 17

Reigns

Promo - 7
Look - 10
In-ring - 8

Total - 25


Omega doesn't have a bad look, but so many guys have great looks now, even smaller guys, that I find his look quite bland. He doesn't have size, nor is he cut. He is built very well. His promos are poor, he just doesn't have the diction for it, hurries too often, and as Emperor says, is far too cartoonish. He can work - he executes his moves well, sells, and tells a story. Again though he's too cartoonish for his own good. I'm also not a huge fan of when someone has a gimmick that they have the best matches. To me it doesn't make much sense within kayfabe. I used to feel the same way about Shawn Michaels. But he's had some good matches in AEW, so no lower than an 8.


Roman Reigns is the best thing in wrestling. Completely believable, and one of the two (the other being Lesnar) genuinely larger than life workers today. 7 for promo, could have been a 6 because of how much he shit the bed as a babyface but it must have been incredibly hard to cut babyface promos when 95% of live fans are shitting on you. 10 for look, say no more. In any era his look works at the top level. I'm a huge fan of his in-ring work. To guys that like athleticism, I can see why he would seem limited. As a fan of storytelling, I don't find him to be limited so much as restrained, and honestly, in today's wrestling, that's a good thing. In an era where everyone does everything, he doesn't. And what he does, he makes count.

Good thread.

KENNY OMEGA
Promo : 5
Look : 6
In Ring : 6

17/30

ROMAN REIGNS
Promo : 7
Look : 10
In Ring : 7

24/30

Jul 6, 2021 13:11:12 GMT NATH45 said:

KENNY OMEGA
Promo : 5
Look : 6
In Ring : 6

17/30

ROMAN REIGNS
Promo : 7
Look : 10
In Ring : 7

24/30

Really breaking it down, Kenny's greatest attribute was a black t-shirt circa 2015. He's an average promo at best - almost cringe-inducing in his delivery. And considering he's a lightweight, he lacks the incredible aesthetic the likes of Finn Balor has been able to craft. His work rate isn't necessarily bad and against the right opponent, he's good, but lacks the incredible consistency you see from the likes of Adam Cole, Johnny Gargano on the big stage and a refocused Finn Balor.

Reigns 5 years ago, his promo ability was piss poor. But he's found his niche with Heyman. He's the most believable promo in WWE right now. His look is and has always been his strong point, you can't buy a presence like Roman's. Again 5 years ago, his work rate was average at best, but has grown into one of the best performers in the company. Is he on the same level as some of the NXT lads, no. But he's a cut above the majority of the main roster - most of which are hard 5s, if that.

Was Omega always considered a bad promo? I feel like a few years ago his reputation was greater on that front (on every front, but we'll stick to promo for now).

Seems pretty dire that Reigns is the only one approaching 25+. Goddamn. What's the AEW situation? Anyone close there?

Omega got a pass on his promos because he spoke fluent Japanese and understood the culture so he connected with that audience better. Strangely he feels more foreign in America because nobody has really had his persona before. A nerdy effimenent pretentious insecure heel who clearly wishes he could be in NJPW but has given up his dream for the sake of his friends.

Moxley has undergone a similar transformation as Reigns. He's improved on every category and I'd say he's about a 22/30. MJF is young but he's already a 10 on promos and has a passable look and in-ring ability. They have this guy called Adam Page who is about to enter his prime, I'd say he's a 7 across the board right now but if he puts it together he could come close to 25. They have this guy called Ricky Starks who came over from the NWA who I'd put in a similar category as Page.

Guys like Miro & Darby Allin deserve a shout out as well.

Thunder Rosa is killing it as well for the women. Fans will tell you Britt Baker is the star but she isn't as strong across the board as Rosa.