I’m shocked it’s been a year myself. I think we’re in a simulation of time and shits just not happening. It reminds me of when I heard Bob Barker died for the third time in like 15 years and I said “wait he was alive this whole time?”

I think we get used to the idea of it, and eventually we move on and something else takes over the news cycle.

Take Ukraine, it's almost never reported on or spoken about and it's almost been like that since as early as early 2023.

The War in Gaza has been terrible for Ukraine as all eyes are on The Middle East instead.

And funnily before that, the world stopped caring about Covid-19 when Russia invaded Ukraine. It's almost never reported on or spoken about in 2023/2024.

We all have lives, and realistically until something like this happens in our backyard, it's relevance in our day to day lives fades.

Oct 7, 2024 23:55:04 GMT NATH45 said:

I think we get used to the idea of it, and eventually we move on and something else takes over the news cycle.

Take Ukraine, it's almost never reported on or spoken about and it's almost been like that since as early as early 2023.

The War in Gaza has been terrible for Ukraine as all eyes are on The Middle East instead.

And funnily before that, the world stopped caring about Covid-19 when Russia invaded Ukraine. It's almost never reported on or spoken about in 2023/2024.

We all have lives, and realistically until something like this happens in our backyard, it's relevance in our day to day lives fades.

Back in college, I was a PR major. We talked a lot about the concept of “newsworthiness.” There are seven elements:

uptakedigital.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002236474-The-Seven-Elements-of-Newsworthiness

To your point, unless it’s in our backyard (proximity), once the initial timeliness wears off, there’s little interest in repeating the same story. Over the last decade, primarily due to social media, news cycles run even shorter … sometimes not even 24 hours.

Oct 2, 2024 11:59:44 GMT iNCY said:

If I was a conspiracy theorist I might postulate that Iraq's support for the war in Iraq and numerous other unilateral and illegal actions undertaken by the USA was about weakening the US moral high ground.

It's hard to argue against Israel blowing up an apartment block full of people to kill a Hezbollah leader when the US is happy to blow up a family in a car to kill a suspected terrorist.
It's only a matter of degrees.

Surprised at the lack of posting there is in this thread considering how close we are to a global conflict with a nuclear power

Or, better yet, how about we start by not justifying civilian casualties of any sort, for any reason? You wouldn't say this if Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, etc. were the targets.

I usually avoid this thread because people say some fucked up shit like that, and there's zero middle ground or nuance at large in the conversation. Especially if you criticize Israel, you're almost always called antisemitic and/or the topic is deflected solely to Hamas and being accused of supporting them.

So I try not to engage in bad faith arguments with people that conflate me as a racist/terrorist/soulless apostate just for simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the historically oppressed becoming an oppressor.

Oct 12, 2024 5:05:44 GMT rad said:

Oct 2, 2024 11:59:44 GMT iNCY said:

If I was a conspiracy theorist I might postulate that Iraq's support for the war in Iraq and numerous other unilateral and illegal actions undertaken by the USA was about weakening the US moral high ground.

It's hard to argue against Israel blowing up an apartment block full of people to kill a Hezbollah leader when the US is happy to blow up a family in a car to kill a suspected terrorist.
It's only a matter of degrees.

Surprised at the lack of posting there is in this thread considering how close we are to a global conflict with a nuclear power

Or, better yet, how about we start by not justifying civilian casualties of any sort, for any reason? You wouldn't say this if Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, etc. were the targets.

I usually avoid this thread because people say some fucked up shit like that, and there's zero middle ground or nuance at large in the conversation. Especially if you criticize Israel, you're almost always called antisemitic and/or the topic is deflected solely to Hamas and being accused of supporting them.

So I try not to engage in bad faith arguments with people that conflate me as a racist/terrorist/soulless apostate just for simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the historically oppressed becoming an oppressor.

It's a bit rich though to go the "civilian casualties" arguing when the US nuked a civilian population twice. Sort of erodes any moral superiority.

But yes, I am uncomfortable the way Israel frames EVERYTHING as antisemitism. They have spent billions of dollars in influence to buy themselves the shield they now have.

It's hard to find Hamas sympathetic though. The people of Palestine elected a recognised terrorist organisation to power, I get why the did it. But it's also unsurprising where they find themselves now.

The left falling in with the Muslims is incredibly hilarious though. They'd throw most hard left democrat types off a roof given the opportunity.

Oct 12, 2024 5:43:52 GMT iNCY said:

Oct 12, 2024 5:05:44 GMT rad said:

Or, better yet, how about we start by not justifying civilian casualties of any sort, for any reason? You wouldn't say this if Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, etc. were the targets.

I usually avoid this thread because people say some fucked up shit like that, and there's zero middle ground or nuance at large in the conversation. Especially if you criticize Israel, you're almost always called antisemitic and/or the topic is deflected solely to Hamas and being accused of supporting them.

So I try not to engage in bad faith arguments with people that conflate me as a racist/terrorist/soulless apostate just for simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the historically oppressed becoming an oppressor.

It's a bit rich though to go the "civilian casualties" arguing when the US nuked a civilian population twice. Sort of erodes any moral superiority.

But yes, I am uncomfortable the way Israel frames EVERYTHING as antisemitism. They have spent billions of dollars in influence to buy themselves the shield they now have.

It's hard to find Hamas sympathetic though. The people of Palestine elected a recognised terrorist organisation to power, I get why the did it. But it's also unsurprising where they find themselves now.

The left falling in with the Muslims is incredibly hilarious though. They'd throw most hard left democrat types off a roof given the opportunity.

Annnddd you're proving my point.

Yeah, so? Both are fucked up, I don't see how one justifies or alleviates the severity of the other. I honestly expect a better talking point than that from you. You're better than that.

You're conflating liberation of innocent Palestinians with me or others sympathizing or even fucking supporting the detestable crimes of Hamas, which isn't at all the case and you know that. That's a bad faith argument and exactly why I don't participate in this circle jerk.

Oct 12, 2024 6:11:56 GMT rad said:

Oct 12, 2024 5:43:52 GMT iNCY said:

It's a bit rich though to go the "civilian casualties" arguing when the US nuked a civilian population twice. Sort of erodes any moral superiority.

But yes, I am uncomfortable the way Israel frames EVERYTHING as antisemitism. They have spent billions of dollars in influence to buy themselves the shield they now have.

It's hard to find Hamas sympathetic though. The people of Palestine elected a recognised terrorist organisation to power, I get why the did it. But it's also unsurprising where they find themselves now.

The left falling in with the Muslims is incredibly hilarious though. They'd throw most hard left democrat types off a roof given the opportunity.

Annnddd you're proving my point.

Yeah, so? Both are fucked up, I don't see how one justifies or alleviates the severity of the other. I honestly expect a better talking point than that from you. You're better than that.

You're conflating liberation of innocent Palestinians with me or others sympathizing or even fucking supporting the detestable crimes of Hamas, which isn't at all the case and you know that. That's a bad faith argument and exactly why I don't participate in this circle jerk.

Looks like the point sailed over your head. The "innocent" Palestinians elected Hamas as their government, I detest the wasteful loss of human life, but when you elect a terrorist government you are party to it.

I also find it bizarre that Hamas didn't hand back the hostages, what do you do when your elected government doesn't value the lives of your own people

As for the October attacks, I think you will find whe the dust settles that the Israeli military killed more Israeli civilians than Hamas did. I think the chopper pilots started shooting everything moving.
The pictures of the shor up cars didn't look like small arms fire

Oct 12, 2024 6:41:18 GMT iNCY said:

Oct 12, 2024 6:11:56 GMT rad said:

Annnddd you're proving my point.

Yeah, so? Both are fucked up, I don't see how one justifies or alleviates the severity of the other. I honestly expect a better talking point than that from you. You're better than that.

You're conflating liberation of innocent Palestinians with me or others sympathizing or even fucking supporting the detestable crimes of Hamas, which isn't at all the case and you know that. That's a bad faith argument and exactly why I don't participate in this circle jerk.

Looks like the point sailed over your head. The "innocent" Palestinians elected Hamas as their government, I detest the wasteful loss of human life, but when you elect a terrorist government you are party to it.

I also find it bizarre that Hamas didn't hand back the hostages, what do you do when your elected government doesn't value the lives of your own people

As for the October attacks, I think you will find whe the dust settles that the Israeli military killed more Israeli civilians than Hamas did. I think the chopper pilots started shooting everything moving.
The pictures of the shor up cars didn't look like small arms fire

And you're willfully disregarding those who didn't and don't support them. It's the totality in which you and others present this issue that I have a really big problem with. Palestinians are not a monolith and neither are Israeli citizens, Jews or their diaspora.

Israel and its aggression does, however, play a huge part in the proliferation of Hamas. People often ignore causation when the effect better suits their skewed argument.

I don't doubt the last point but I also don't know why we're tallying heads here either. It's pretty simple to me: they can both get fucked. I don't support civilians being murdered, ever, point blank. There are no excuses. Affiliation with Hamas makes someone an aggressor, not an ordinary civilian. Why do I have to clarify that? And why can't I acknowledge that there's a reason Hamas even exists, without being treated like I'm a jihadist child soldier? Rain can't fall without a stormy cloud, after all.

Personal bias over humanity is apparently a hell of a drug.

Oct 12, 2024 9:07:15 GMT rad said:

Oct 12, 2024 6:41:18 GMT iNCY said:

Looks like the point sailed over your head. The "innocent" Palestinians elected Hamas as their government, I detest the wasteful loss of human life, but when you elect a terrorist government you are party to it.

I also find it bizarre that Hamas didn't hand back the hostages, what do you do when your elected government doesn't value the lives of your own people

As for the October attacks, I think you will find whe the dust settles that the Israeli military killed more Israeli civilians than Hamas did. I think the chopper pilots started shooting everything moving.
The pictures of the shor up cars didn't look like small arms fire

And you're willfully disregarding those who didn't and don't support them. It's the totality in which you and others present this issue that I have a really big problem with. Palestinians are not a monolith and neither are Israeli citizens, Jews or their diaspora.

Israel and its aggression does, however, play a huge part in the proliferation of Hamas. People often ignore causation when the effect better suits their skewed argument.

I don't doubt the last point but I also don't know why we're tallying heads here either. It's pretty simple to me: they can both get fucked. I don't support civilians being murdered, ever, point blank. There are no excuses. Affiliation with Hamas makes someone an aggressor, not an ordinary civilian. Why do I have to clarify that? And why can't I acknowledge that there's a reason Hamas even exists, without being treated like I'm a jihadist child soldier? Rain can't fall without a stormy cloud, after all.

Personal bias over humanity is apparently a hell of a drug.

You keep ignoring that the Palestinian PEOPLE elected HAMAS to be their government.
It does not excuse Israel's behaviour, but the people of Palestine had to know they were voting for jihad.

The US Government has sent a letter to Israel demanding it improve humanitarian aid efforts in Gaza within 30 days or else it could halt military assistance.

www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/letter-reveals-us-threat-to-withdraw-military-support-to-israel/news-story/f633fac5f1fc8288fcd79be4c5d0af12

Also today, aids introduced Joe Biden to the phone.

Oct 12, 2024 12:00:12 GMT iNCY said:

Oct 12, 2024 9:07:15 GMT rad said:

And you're willfully disregarding those who didn't and don't support them. It's the totality in which you and others present this issue that I have a really big problem with. Palestinians are not a monolith and neither are Israeli citizens, Jews or their diaspora.

Israel and its aggression does, however, play a huge part in the proliferation of Hamas. People often ignore causation when the effect better suits their skewed argument.

I don't doubt the last point but I also don't know why we're tallying heads here either. It's pretty simple to me: they can both get fucked. I don't support civilians being murdered, ever, point blank. There are no excuses. Affiliation with Hamas makes someone an aggressor, not an ordinary civilian. Why do I have to clarify that? And why can't I acknowledge that there's a reason Hamas even exists, without being treated like I'm a jihadist child soldier? Rain can't fall without a stormy cloud, after all.

Personal bias over humanity is apparently a hell of a drug.

You keep ignoring that the Palestinian PEOPLE elected HAMAS to be their government.
It does not excuse Israel's behaviour, but the people of Palestine had to know they were voting for jihad.

"Elected" or elected? Lots of officials were "elected" under the guise of democracy throughout history when in actuality the people weren't REALLY given a choice. 

There's also what rad mentioned about what created Hamas, which I believe is super important. 

We have a 'massacre' noted in the history books here in Alberta from 1885 called The Frog lake Massacre. Firstly, it was called a Massacre because 9 white men were killed by rebelling Cree men (Indigenous Tribe)-ignore the fact about how many Cree had died at the hands of the white men through starvation and mistreatment before this happened. It's important to our history because it helped light the fuse for all the subsequent abuses of our Indigenous Peoples: Reservations, Residential Schools, 60's Scoop, Indian Act, Etc...that we are still trying to fix and getting about as far as Israel and Palestine have (without the bombs).

I'm using this as example because the Massacre happened due to hunger, mistreatment, a loss of their way of life, their land, and a desire to resist the Canadian government (from being assimilated). I think in this way it's similar (though not the same) to the Palestinian people: a people without a home, way of life threatened, mistreated, malnourished, etc. This creates desperation and promotes resistance and uprising. Hamas is born out of this desperation. Therefore it could be said Israel and it's Allies created Hamas as much as Canada created the various uprisings of our Indigenous Peoples and the US created Saddam Hussein and The Taliban, etc.

We do need to note that Hamas being voted in was nearly 19 years ago.

It was Hamas 44% v Fatah 41%. It wasn't exactly an overwhelming victory.

And that Government collapsed in less than a year during, you guessed it.. bloody conflict.

Hamas was later dismissed when a new Prime Minister was appointed from a Liberal democratic party.

Hamas and their opponents have pretty much been at it since for control, and eventually when they attempted reconciliation between and Hamas and Fatah to form some sort of government, it never actually materialised because they'd rather shoot each other than talk and ever since Hamas has ruled Gaza after winning the civil war in 2007.

Oh, and there hasn't been an election since. It's been indefinitely postponed. No surprises.

But, sure. Voted in.

www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israel-checking-possibility-it-has-killed-hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar/news-story/1a4d737856c264e89326a85362ce66ae

" Israeli soldiers kill Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar in Rafah raid "

The leader of terrorist group Hamas and mastermind of the October 7 massacre has been killed in a routine raid that caught the terror chief by chance.

My mom is going to a local synagogue today to serve food to Holocaust Survivors. I asked her which one, which got me 'the look' (I stand by my question). My mom is an 'acts of service' type person. She doesn't care about your race, religion, politics, sexuality, etc. She just wants to help where she can. Next week she'll be helping at a local mosque. I just worry with all the unrest that's she'll somehow get caught in this innocently.

Oct 3, 2024 20:05:06 GMT @ness said:

Really wish it was possible for the rest of the world to no sell this conflict and not be dragged into their drama.

That said this is how I feel every time America defends Israel.

Hamas and Hezbollah, both Iranian proxies, are your idea of the quiet kid?

May as well rename this the WW3 thread..

www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/would-shock-you-global-expert-reveals-horrifying-world-war-prediction/news-story/27d2981258234caafbaa8c399a8b4303

" Would shock you’: Global expert reveals horrifying world war prediction "

One of the world’s leading experts has claimed we are lurching towards a devastating conflict..

Oct 22, 2024 23:38:45 GMT thereallt said:

Oct 3, 2024 20:05:06 GMT @ness said:

Really wish it was possible for the rest of the world to no sell this conflict and not be dragged into their drama.

That said this is how I feel every time America defends Israel.

Hamas and Hezbollah, both Iranian proxies, are your idea of the quiet kid?

Palestinian civilians*

Stop being so daft. You know exactly what he meant.

Nov 6, 2024 15:18:38 GMT rad said:

Oct 22, 2024 23:38:45 GMT thereallt said:

Hamas and Hezbollah, both Iranian proxies, are your idea of the quiet kid?

Palestinian civilians*

Stop being so daft. You know exactly what he meant.

Except Palestinian and Lebanese civilians are getting killed BECAUSE of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Nov 7, 2024 10:13:48 GMT thereallt said:

Nov 6, 2024 15:18:38 GMT rad said:

Palestinian civilians*

Stop being so daft. You know exactly what he meant.

Except Palestinian and Lebanese civilians are getting killed BECAUSE of Hamas and Hezbollah.

And again, their existence is built upon, emboldened and enlarged by Israeli aggression.

Me making that distinction isn't a justification or a dismissal for either of those groups, it's pointing out the intellectual dishonesty of presenting a very nuanced crisis as a matter of black or white.

It'd be nice to have an earnest conversation on the topic without it always defaulting to "bUt WhAt AbOuT hAmAs!?!?"

Nov 7, 2024 10:41:54 GMT rad said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:13:48 GMT thereallt said:

Except Palestinian and Lebanese civilians are getting killed BECAUSE of Hamas and Hezbollah.

And again, their existence is built upon, emboldened and enlarged by Israeli aggression.

Me making that distinction isn't a justification or a dismissal for either of those groups, it's pointing out the intellectual dishonesty of presenting a very nuanced crisis as a matter of black or white.

It'd be nice to have an earnest conversation on the topic without it always defaulting to "bUt WhAt AbOuT hAmAs!?!?"

When you use your civilians as human shields, your civilians are going to die.  

While the causation behind this war is nuanced, this particular point is very black and white.   You want to keep your civilians alive.   Don't build basecamps in hospitals and schools.  Don't put missile launchers in residential areas.

Nov 9, 2024 0:05:03 GMT thereallt said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:41:54 GMT rad said:

And again, their existence is built upon, emboldened and enlarged by Israeli aggression.

Me making that distinction isn't a justification or a dismissal for either of those groups, it's pointing out the intellectual dishonesty of presenting a very nuanced crisis as a matter of black or white.

It'd be nice to have an earnest conversation on the topic without it always defaulting to "bUt WhAt AbOuT hAmAs!?!?"

When you use your civilians as human shields, your civilians are going to die.  

While the causation behind this war is nuanced, this particular point is very black and white.   You want to keep your civilians alive.   Don't build basecamps in hospitals and schools.  Don't put missile launchers in residential areas

I'm not arguing otherwise, it just reads like you expect me to expect the worst of only Palestinians and just always give Israel the benefit of the doubt, like they aren't religious extremists with ill intent as well.

Both sides continue radicalizing the other. Why split hairs over who did what or who is justified?

The response should almost never be "well that's what happens when..." it should be "that shouldn't be happening at all and why are we supporting it?". If that makes me a bleeding heart, so be it. I felt the same way for the terrorist attack at that concert as I do for some unfortunate Palestinian child caught in the crossfire.

I also get that it's deeper and more complicated than that at some level on a geopolitical scale, but we (each wing of either administrative bird) still hold the power to make a difference but are far more concerned with the power part.

I'm not saying hand Hamas over an autonomous state and you can suddenly expect peace overnight, but the groundwork needs to be laid by fostering reconciliation between the two (not Hamas but a peaceful coalition willing to come to the table) and drafting a treaty with fair terms for both parties involved. The cruelty of either should stop being the only point that matters before we're all sucked into a war that finally finishes us off for good.

Free Palestine all the way but how is this going to win anyone over by upsetting families that just want to look at Xmas displays?

Nov 18, 2024 23:30:51 GMT System said:

Free Palestine all the way but how is this going to win anyone over by upsetting families that just want to look at Xmas displays?

The old " Rent a mob " of privileged white inner city lefties appropriating a cause.

" Change The Date! "
" River to The Sea! "
" Won't someone think of the sea-turtles! "

www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/arrest-warrants-issued-for-netanyahu-gallant-and-hamas-commander/news-story/a4c4aa6d819c4ccb5c3253484f6ed889

" Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander

Judges at the International Criminal Court have issued arrest warrants for Israel’s prime minister and Hamas’s military commander. "