Jun 2, 2024 1:08:44 GMT @theshow said:

If it means anything I enjoyed seeing good ole Double J on my tv. It was a nice surprise. Did you know he was given a guitar by Garth Brooks!?

NO! And I'm kicking myself over forgetting this. And to think I call myself a 95-96 WWF fanatic... smh. I have failed at life.

Jun 2, 2024 0:53:43 GMT @theshow said:

They spent way too much time on those awful Scheme Gene and Hukster segments. Who enjoyed this?

Maybe the greatest monument of Vince McMahon Humor. It fucking sucked so bad.

And also, so ungrateful to people that made him a lot of money that didn't even pull a Lex Luger! Vince phased them out!

Jun 2, 2024 1:22:11 GMT Kilgore said:

Jun 2, 2024 0:53:43 GMT @theshow said:

They spent way too much time on those awful Scheme Gene and Hukster segments. Who enjoyed this?

quote]Maybe the greatest monument of Vince McMahon's Humor. It fucking sucked so bad.

And also, he was so ungrateful to people that made him a lot of money that didn't even pull a Lex Luger! Vince phased them out![/quote]
You & I have always been in lockstep here. I found myself thinking, why is Vince crushing guys that he helped create & making himself look stupid in the process?

Is 97 not the greatest year for wrestling? The world title scene is such a mess that it just has an air of believeability to the era it was turning into. In terms of workrate matches you really had a lot to sink your teeth into. The Rumble, Final Four, Submission Match, HIAC and if you include wCw you had Halloween Havoc to round it out. The build to Starrcade with Sting even if it was a mess.

Like when you look at it, this is what wrestling is supposed to be. 98 felt like it was getting a little more polish and focus, which oddly enough makes it less interesting. 99 sucked and 00 was good but it was manufactured to be good. 97 was just a beautiful disaster. Like wouldn't it have just been meh if he didn't lose that smile? Aka I ain't returning the job, jack.

Of course it would cost us all a few years later when Goldberg would end the goat's career, but luckily he'll burn in hell for that.

Furnas and Lafon update:

They are coming to the ring with no music and are now billed as “the world’s most exciting tag team”. Really leaning into their sheer boringness.

Also Austin and Shawn’s chemistry might be overlooked quite a bit, they are such great frenemies. And their KOTR match was 12x better than I remembered up until the wonky finish - which also didn’t totally suck.

Also the New Nation is now a thing sans Henry. Better than before but the Ahmed Johnson turn was anti climactic and pretty dumb.

Man the urge to go through 97 is strong, it’s been 12 years since the last time and I didn’t have the PPV back then for WWF just all Raw on DVD, may have to renew that peacock, I went though 96 last year

Jun 2, 2024 19:54:47 GMT UT said:

Furnas and Lafon update:

They are coming to the ring with no music and are now billed as “the world’s most exciting tag team”. Really leaning into their sheer boringness.

Wild they gave 'em the Lance Storm 'boring' gimmick way back in '97. Wilder still how I don't remember this. I'll have to check it out.

Nowadays I realize F&L were always doomed. They're not getting over at any time under the WWE umbrella until mid 2010s NXT, where they would have been huge before flopping on the main roster and then jumping to AEW.

I could see them getting over 5 years earlier in 91-92 WCW as an evil version of the Steiners. Basically the Doc & Gordy spot. Give them a decent manager like Paul E. to do their talking and you're off to the races. 
===========
Circling back to 1997 Undertaker and piggybacking on yesterday's post in another thread about things that piss me off...'Taker totally should have been #1 in the 1997 PWI 500 and it still annoys me that he wasn't. Malenko taking home the top spot was a travesty of justice. And I liked Malenko in 95-96! But all he did in '97 was pick up a few midcard titles. Not #1 worthy. It was a propaganda pick. PWI was forever pushing a pure technical style as the ideal and Malenko was the poster boy for that style of wrestling. Probably shouldn't even have been Top 10. Let's look at the real contenders...

Hogan held a major World Title the longest, but he was controversially the first ever part time champion, and I feel like that was a bigger deal in '97 than it would be today. He finished like #21 and I was totally fine with that #55 and, wow, that is some hardcore Hogan hatred. Even 1997 me wouldn't have rated him that low.

Over in WWF Austin hadn't won the big one yet and actually lost most of his high-profile matches. Bret had the 1 day run in February and had only recaptured the title a few days before the deadline, plus he missed some time. Michaels missed even more time due to losing his smile. Sid was in and out too much. Owen & Davey are WWF's answer to Malenko.

ECW was still too small time, and it's been confirmed the PWI bigwigs weren't going to have a Japanese wrestler at #1 because it would hurt magazine sales (some writers pushed for Misawa as #1 in '99 and probably '97 as well) so your only logical bet is steady, reliable, World Champ for 4+ months, The Undertaker. 

Imagine being this passionate about a PWI list. God, I was truly alive. Maslow's self-actualized man in the flesh, baby.

I don’t know that they’d even be over then - even tag teams like American Alpha didn’t last. The WWF hated tag teams most of the time.

I do think they’d stand somewhat of a chance given a worthy mouthpiece but probably not in that era where tag teams were largely dead. You’re probably on the best track with early 90s WCW.

Austin didn’t win many matches but he didn’t really lose much either I don’t think. They even hammer home the fact that he didn’t quit the I Quit match so is that really a loss?

Jun 3, 2024 0:46:46 GMT UT said:

1. I don’t know that they’d even be over then - even tag teams like American Alpha didn’t last. The WWF hated tag teams most of the time.

2. Austin didn’t win many matches but he didn’t really lose much either I don’t think. They even hammer home the fact that he didn’t quit the I Quit match so is that really a loss?

1. Over in NXT only. I did make sure to mention they'd flop on the main roster.
2. Failed to win the IYH 4 Way, lost at 'Mania, lost to Taker in May, drew with Michaels at KOTR, pinned in the Canadian Stampede 10 man tag. That's a lot of big match losses in 5 months. If you go back to 96* he also lost to Bret at Survivor Series. Plus no World Championship on what is normally a real kayfabe-heavy list. Still would have made a better #1 than Dean though!

*The PWI year was weird. Iirc the PWI 500 'year' ended roughly in August, may have been October (some years?), but it definitely wasn't the full calendar year. And whether their current 'year' ran from August to August, October to October, or January to August/October seemed to vary depending on the year/wrestler/narrative being pushed.

By PWI standards, Taker/Luger/Taz should have been Top 3 of 1997 in any order. Misawa and Austin finishing out the Top 5.

I don’t think he lost at Mania. It was never truly put over like that and he came out looking stronger than ever.

I’ll give you the Taker loss though it took Pullman distraction. And the Stampede loss though I’d also argue that he ended that PPV even more certified as a badass after recentering the ring to fight them all again.

I get it’s a kayfabe list but Austin rarely came out of any match worse for wear.

Could have sworn I/we did our own PWI Top 10s right here on PW but after much searching I could not find anything. Must have been on the old PW. Was curious to see what I came up with. Taker is a lock for my #1 in 1997, and Bret, Michaels, Austin Top 10 locks, but I'm not sure beyond that. Definitely want to get double champs Owen & Bulldog on there, but not sure I can swing it considering I've yet to include a single WCW or ECW wrestler.

This gang warfare stuff is amongst the dumbest shit in history.

Who are we even supposed to root for?

Oh shit it’s Tajiri vs Taka on Raw. Who knew?

Jun 3, 2024 20:36:41 GMT UT said:

Oh shit it’s Tajiri vs Taka on Raw. Who knew?

Which reminds me. Yo, Big Pete Tajiri not only worked a few matches in the early days of the WWF Light Heavyweight division, but even worked as a jobber way back in 1996 vs. the Godwinns. His partner? None other than Tim "Son of Pat" Patterson! (long story) I was kicking myself a decade ago for not having known of this earlier.

So what if after Summerslam - Austin’s career actually ends? Where does the WWF go from there?

Remember Bret is on his way out … and Shawn is on an extremely limited schedule.

Does it go to Shamrock?

Also my post SS power rankings.

Top
1. Stone Cold
2. Mick Foley
3. Shawn Michaels


Bottom
1. The Nazis and Puerto Ricans
2. The Tag Division
3. Rockabilly

Jun 4, 2024 23:08:26 GMT UT said:

So what if after Summerslam - Austin’s career actually ends? Where does the WWF go from there?

Remember Bret is on his way out … and Shawn is on an extremely limited schedule.

Does it go to Shamrock?

It's almost impossible for me to imagine.

Does Vince want to keep Bret as a result?

If not, and Shawn is still going into WM14 as a heel champion, then we need a big babyface candidate and I'm leaning towards Foley, even though that also seems unlikely. I just don't know who else. I'm picturing they embrace the 3 Faces of Foley stuff, he controversially wins the Rumble after entering for the third time. He has to defend his #1 contendership at the February PPV due to the controversy, prevails, and goes on the WrestleMania to dethrone HBK.

This seems more likely to me than Shamrock and yet still hard to imagine Vince going all in on Foley in 1998. 

Does he commit to a WM14 finish he's not in love with with the plan to give Hogan a Godfather offer in June of 1998?

I don't know. It's fun to think about. 

It would seem like by WM15 they realize The Rock is The Guy, though, and maybe their dominance is delayed a year. 

I only brought up Shamrock because he’s actually incredibly over at this point , has that same type of edge and unpredictability that Austin does so if they wanted to continue to play to that Audience he seems to make sense, even if it would be super early.

I love Foley so I wouldn’t hate him at all but it seems like a stretch at that point.

Rude being part of DX is so fucking random and ill fitting.

There's a lot about Austin's run at the top that seems built on backup plans for shit going south. Would he always rise to the top like cream of the crop or did shit just kinda work out swimmingly for him as it hit the fan? Moves to ECW and later WWF because he plateau'd in wCW - could he have gotten a comfortable b level main event spot and not changed the business? If you buy into the "punishment" narrative, would he have gotten his moment if 96 went to HHH? If Shawn didn't lose his smile would Austin's 97 have continued the moment into the submission match? Or would that have stalled a year facing Bret as WWF Champ and gotten there just the same?

When he walked out regardless of circumstances it was clear his shtick was stale and the business was sorta moving on slash not entirely putting everything into him so he was able to close out his career without totally embarrassing himself in a "why not 20 yrs ago?" sorta way. Was X9 out of the blue or were they planning on a lengthier Austin in ring run in 2003? Maybe slide into attraction role? If Rock was his last real match - very few could planned a better way to go out, yet this landed in their lap.

2003 he was here for a spell until the podcasting gimmick took off. He was done but could come back so he always had that going for him. Went out on top, didn't have to put anyone over and people love him so much the fanbase basically said Debra was a freebie.

Like there's a lot there that if they went "according to plan" you question, could Austin have succeeded the way he did? Hell just having Shawn active in some fan fic universe could drastically change his whole career.

Rude in DX feels like it only exists as a "gotcha" trivia question. Feels like it would be completely forgotten to time if not for the legendary jump ship moment. Feels like the last great wrestling accomplishment from a previous era holdout. Like if there was a Scream parody with wrestling it would totally be Tiger Mask asking some trick question like "name DX's original insurance policy" and some might immediately jump in with Chyna, bzzt.

Man so much of this time period (must be why Austin really ran things) was based on weird unexpected circumstances. That's something ya miss about wrestling. Knowing about these contracts and deals just ruins the magic from watching it not totally "getting" it. We know their contract terms better than them. It's like getting excited for a Backlash title defense. Dude you know the deal. The more we knew about wrestling, the less fun it was. At least for me. Grown ass men talking about DIRTSHEETS online just loses some of it's stank when you're not in high school anymore.

I don't wanna know about their investments. I just want them to DO stuff on TV. That's wrestling to me and why Flair is probably the goat. Getting married, scamming people, being broke, always another pay day. Even when he can't go, he totally DOES. Wrestling needs slight grime imo and the more "sports" it becomes the less I'm interested. Feels like modern time is about finishing the story. The title scene in 97 is like the exact opposite of that. But maybe the story was always Austin when he tangled with Bret the first time. Just got there a different way. I dunno am I wrong in thinking the way it went was more exciting? I guess I'm saying Smile/Montreal is the good ending to the fingerpoke of doom?

Is Owen at all a possibility in your eyes at the close of 97 when he returned at the last PPV?

I don’t see it being Owen - if only because they weren’t going to give him that spot after being the one who injured their golden goose.

Jun 5, 2024 0:23:04 GMT @ness said:

There's a lot about Austin's run at the top that seems built on backup plans for shit going south. Would he always rise to the top like cream of the crop or did shit just kinda work out swimmingly for him as it hit the fan? Moves to ECW and later WWF because he plateau'd in wCW - could he have gotten a comfortable b level main event spot and not changed the business? If you buy into the "punishment" narrative, would he have gotten his moment if 96 went to HHH? If Shawn didn't lose his smile would Austin's 97 have continued the moment into the submission match? Or would that have stalled a year facing Bret as WWF Champ and gotten there just the same?

When he walked out regardless of circumstances it was clear his shtick was stale and the business was sorta moving on slash not entirely putting everything into him so he was able to close out his career without totally embarrassing himself in a "why not 20 yrs ago?" sorta way. Was X9 out of the blue or were they planning on a lengthier Austin in ring run in 2003? Maybe slide into attraction role? If Rock was his last real match - very few could planned a better way to go out, yet this landed in their lap.

2003 he was here for a spell until the podcasting gimmick took off. He was done but could come back so he always had that going for him. Went out on top, didn't have to put anyone over and people love him so much the fanbase basically said Debra was a freebie.

Like there's a lot there that if they went "according to plan" you question, could Austin have succeeded the way he did? Hell just having Shawn active in some fan fic universe could drastically change his whole career.

Austin was on his way despite any of the other ongoings in the WWF at the time - it might have been a bit different of a trajectory but it’s clear that he was the most talented and hottest dude on the roster once he shed the ringmaster crap.

Also love Slaughter being brought on to stop the shenanigans and they are shenanning more then ever.

Worst commissioner ever.

Great stuff, guys. This is what HoW is all about.

Jun 4, 2024 23:08:26 GMT UT said:

So what if after Summerslam - Austin’s career actually ends? Where does the WWF go from there?

Remember Bret is on his way out … and Shawn is on an extremely limited schedule.

Does it go to Shamrock?

Yep. I/we once did this under slightly different parameters and decided Shamrock would be The Guy. They'd built to a colossal "Baddest Man In The World" big money showdown between Shamrock & Tyson. Think I penciled it in for Summerslam 1998. As Kilgore stated, The Rock is ready to go by 1999 wherein he becomes the next top guy. 

Jun 5, 2024 0:21:43 GMT UT said:

Rude being part of DX is so fucking random and ill fitting.

Yes. God, yes. Thank you. I've always thought this. Even back when it was happening in real time.

Jun 5, 2024 0:37:27 GMT @ness said:

 Grown ass men talking about DIRTSHEETS online just loses some of it's stank when you're not in high school anymore.

I don't wanna know about their investments. I just want them to DO stuff on TV. That's wrestling to me and why Flair is probably the goat. Getting married, scamming people, being broke, always another pay day. Even when he can't go, he totally DOES. Wrestling needs slight grime imo and the more "sports" it becomes the less I'm interested. I guess I'm saying Smile/Montreal is the good ending to the fingerpoke of doom?

Beautiful. Deserves to be framed. Ness gets it.

Jun 5, 2024 0:38:50 GMT @ness said:

Is Owen at all a possibility in your eyes at the close of 97 when he returned at the last PPV?

Only if I've got the book, brother. 

Seriously their whole schtick is being young degenerates and over the top immaturity - but their weird uncle is there for some reason. This is why the post WM14 DX will always be my DX.

Shawn just delivered one of the most wicked chair shots ever on Taker on Raw. Insane how common place this used to be.

Jun 5, 2024 1:41:03 GMT UT said:

Seriously their whole schtick is being young degenerates and over the top immaturity - but their weird uncle is there for some reason. This is why the post WM14 DX will always be my DX.

Shawn just delivered one of the most wicked chair shots ever on Taker on Raw. Insane how common place this used to be.

The chair shots you need to see are the ones that Shamrock took from the Rock. They'll show them at the beginning of their WrestleMania match. Heck. I think he does another in their match at Mania. 100% unprotected. They look nasty.