I don’t have a clever title but I’ve been watching the WWF from about 95 on … including the Raws and I want a spot to put my thoughts.

- Stone Cold is amazing in this era. Obvious one out of the way first but man I don’t know there has ever been a wrestler more on top of his game than Austin during this time.

- Bret Hart as a heel still isn’t good on the mic. I’ve heard and remember Hart being better or great once he turned heel on the mic and while he had a few great moments and was vital as opposition to Austin - his promos are still a chore. I never want to hear the word Hyenas again.

- Flash Funk may be the most out of place wrestler in history.

- Vader sucked in the WWF. It wasn’t WWFs fault - he was just so past his prime.

- Taker was pretty lame and a champion out of convenience more than anything.

- Ahmed Johnson was better and had way more potential than given credit for. Won’t say he was good but he a great presence and swagger and could have had a Batista like trajectory with better attitude. Also didn’t help he was in a decade long feud with the lamest version of NOD.

- Chyna was so good as the bodyguard before they tried to turn her into everything she ain’t.

- Foley is god. Owen Hart might be Jesus.

I’m into May 97 right now. Looking forward to Kane and DX coming.

I'm going through the process of watching every WrestleMania. I just finished 13 so I'm right in your wheelhouse.

Chyna's part in HHH's 2nd and 3rd WrestleMania match was just INCREDIBLE. Loved her swinging Marlena like a ragdoll and then throwing powder in Slaughter's eyes so she could low blow. She was the highlight of two VERY good work rate matches.

May 31, 2024 1:05:36 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

I'm going through the process of watching every WrestleMania. I just finished 13 so I'm right in your wheelhouse.

Chyna's part in HHH's 2nd and 3rd WrestleMania match was just INCREDIBLE. Loved her swinging Marlena like a ragdoll and then throwing powder in Slaughter's eyes so she could low blow. She was the highlight of two VERY good work rate matches.

I wasn’t a fan of HHH and Goldust feud aside from that Chyna spot which was epic.

May 30, 2024 23:43:05 GMT UT said:

- Ahmed Johnson was better and had way more potential than given credit for. Won’t say he was good but he a great presence and swagger and could have had a Batista like trajectory with better attitude. Also didn’t help he was in a decade long feud with the lamest version of NOD.

- Chyna was so good as the bodyguard before they tried to turn her into everything she ain’t.

- Foley is god. Owen Hart might be Jesus.

These are my favorite takes in this batch

Seriously though. Taker. What the shit? He is far luckier that Michaels for the second half of his career.

May 31, 2024 1:27:39 GMT UT said:

Seriously though. Taker. What the shit? He is far luckier that Michaels for the second half of his career.

Been maintaining for years Taker has the worst batting average of good matches (or good stretches even) of any wrestler with a great (or good!) reputation. I was a wrestling fanatic who didn't give a shit about Undertaker for most of his career because of this. I'm flipping to Nitro almost automatically during this period. 

May 31, 2024 1:40:26 GMT Kilgore said:

May 31, 2024 1:27:39 GMT UT said:

Seriously though. Taker. What the shit? He is far luckier that Michaels for the second half of his career.

I was a wrestling fanatic who didn't give a shit about Undertaker for most of his career because of this. I'm flipping to Nitro almost automatically during this period. 

Counterpoint: I was a wrestling fanatic who gave many shits about Undertaker for roughly 18 of 19 years. Undertaker is a big reason why WWF > WCW. Even the NWO-loving WCW fanatic in my 96-97 math class respected Taker in the same way I still respected WCW's Flair. 

And to borrow from UT's correct take on Ahmed, Taker had great presence and aura even when he 'sucked.'

May 31, 2024 1:53:57 GMT Baker said:

Counterpoint: I was a wrestling fanatic WWF Loyalist

Correcting this statement.

You know when you're in school in the cafeteria and you hear that oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo from across the room? That's now.

May 31, 2024 2:07:50 GMT Kilgore said:

May 31, 2024 1:53:57 GMT Baker said:

Counterpoint: I was a wrestling fanatic WWF Loyalist

Correcting this statement.

One can be both a wrestling fanatic and a WWF Loyalist.

May 31, 2024 2:11:09 GMT Baker said:

May 31, 2024 2:07:50 GMT Kilgore said:

Correcting this statement.

One can be both a wrestling fanatic and a WWF Loyalist.

Yes, but disqualified from flipping to Nitro conversation! Your math class bro is noted, though. No doubt, Undertaker won many flips.

I was watching shows from this era recently and I realized Sid was that dude. He had an amazing look, fantastic aura, and was oozing charisma. Even though he was supposed to be a heel, he had the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. Just loved his presentation. Bonus points for a cool theme and the giant SID pyro. It’s amazing because he wasn’t a great worker and didn’t cut the best promos. He was just naturally a cool badass.

The Sid/Bret cage match and aftermath is my favorite segment in RAW history. “I don’t know shit crybaby!”

May 31, 2024 2:16:43 GMT Kilgore said:

May 31, 2024 2:11:09 GMT Baker said:

One can be both a wrestling fanatic and a WWF Loyalist.

Yes, but disqualified from flipping to Nitro conversation! 

There's still September 95-August 96! I'm being intentionally silly now. Sorry for derailing your thread UT. What are your thoughts on Sal Sincere? I really liked his Raw match with Taker! May have unironically had it as a Top 5 all time Taker match at the time it aired.

May 31, 2024 1:40:26 GMT Kilgore said:

May 31, 2024 1:27:39 GMT UT said:

Seriously though. Taker. What the shit? He is far luckier that Michaels for the second half of his career.

Been maintaining for years Taker has the worst batting average of good matches (or good stretches even) of any wrestler with a great (or good!) reputation. I was a wrestling fanatic who didn't give a shit about Undertaker for most of his career because of this. I'm flipping to Nitro almost automatically during this period. 

Yeah it’s not even just his matches and I’ll give him some leeway because of who he worked, though him not even having good matches with Austin is weird.

His whole schtick and character was corny as hell though. He never should have uttered a word.

May 31, 2024 2:19:04 GMT @theshow said:

I was watching shows from this era recently and I realized Sid was that dude. He had an amazing look, fantastic aura, and was oozing charisma. Even though he was supposed to be a heel, he had the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. Just loved his presentation. Bonus points for a cool theme and the giant SID pyro. It’s amazing because he wasn’t a great worker and didn’t cut the best promos. He was just naturally a cool badass.

The Sid/Bret cage match and aftermath is my favorite segment in RAW history. “I don’t know shit crybaby!”

This too. Sid is underrated , he could never be the guy but as a pinch hitter coming in - he was perfect, believable and over as hell.

Also he’s a better promo than Taker or Bret.

May 31, 2024 2:52:28 GMT UT said:

May 31, 2024 1:40:26 GMT Kilgore said:

Been maintaining for years Taker has the worst batting average of good matches (or good stretches even) of any wrestler with a great (or good!) reputation. I was a wrestling fanatic who didn't give a shit about Undertaker for most of his career because of this. I'm flipping to Nitro almost automatically during this period. 

Yeah it’s not even just his matches and I’ll give him some way because of who he worked, though him not even having good matches with Austin is weird.

His whole schtick and character was corny as hell though. He never should have uttered a word.

Absolutely. It really stuck out in real time too. Most WWF/WCW angles at the time were some variation of stables battling in basically gang warfare, so 'Taker really felt like a relic of the previous era.

It makes sense that the eventual update to the character was a gang of his own with the Ministry of Darkness.

May 31, 2024 2:19:51 GMT Baker said:

May 31, 2024 2:16:43 GMT Kilgore said:

Yes, but disqualified from flipping to Nitro conversation! 

There's still September 95-August 96! I'm being intentionally silly now. Sorry for derailing your thread UT. What are your thoughts on Sal Sincere? I really liked his Raw match with Taker! May have unironically had it as a Top 5 all time Taker match at the time it aired.

I might have missed it, I admittedly fast forward through some things because I don’t have that kind of patience.

Savio Vega especially but all if this NOD I can’t deal with.

Also hilarious that Furnas and Lafons gimmick became that they aren’t over. I don’t remember that but it’s hilarious listening to the commentary talk about how no one cares either way about them.

Gorilla Monsoon is also great, maybe the best figurehead. His disappointed uncle routine always gets a laugh and smile out of me.

May 31, 2024 2:57:00 GMT Kilgore said:

May 31, 2024 2:52:28 GMT UT said:

Yeah it’s not even just his matches and I’ll give him some way because of who he worked, though him not even having good matches with Austin is weird.

His whole schtick and character was corny as hell though. He never should have uttered a word.

Absolutely. It really stuck out in real time too. Most WWF/WCW angles at the time were some variation of stables battling in basically gang warfare, so 'Taker really felt like a relic of the previous era.

It makes sense that the eventual update to the character was a gang of his own with the Ministry of Darkness.

Yeah it’s weird how he’s looked back on with such rose colored glasses, the second half his career completely changed the perception on his career as a whole.

Wonder what people would say about him had his career ended in 97. I’d definitely hold him in a much lower regard than even Diesel or Razor. Perhaps on part with a Yokozuna.

As a Taker fan Baker even you have to admit his title run was bad and the only reason he got the title was because Vince trusted him not because he was on top.

Bret was malcontent and even flirting with WCW.

Shawn lost his smile and couldn’t be counted on.

Austin was a little early.

Sid wasn’t the most reliable or trustworthy.

Taker was the only real option at that point even though it didn’t really fit, as Kilgore said - he was a relic of times past. And aside from Foley none of his feuds are remotely memorable. The title at this time was a complete afterthought and that’s on Taker.



* I forgot Mankind and while I would have been okay with him holding the title - I don’t think Vince would have ever being his just came over from WCW and he was paranoid around this time.

I'm leaning towards Baker's side of things, you're selling 'taker short. Undertaker was at or near the main event level in the WWF for seven years at this point, that puts him ahead of Razor and Diesel for me. He still had that aura about him and was over as hell. I reviewed an Austin/Taker match from August '96 at MSG just after the birth of Austin 3:16, you know what the crowd was chanting? RIP. Taker was still more over than Austin at that point. By 1997 he was already transitioning his character to be more flexible and work with more freedom against guys like Bret and Shawn and have "good matches". All credit to him for taking such a limited gimmick and make it captivating to that audience for so long.

Austin was still pretty far on the heel spectrum at that point - yes the turn officially started with the 3:16 promo but it’s not like it was a flip of the switch and boom - the crowd loved him.

I don’t get the aura stuff - is it because of the darkness of his character or is it being conflated because of years of knowing what happens next?

And up until Mankind - what would you say is Takers biggest or most memorable moment?

Also especially Diesel damn near came in at the main event level and held the title for a year. Razor may be a stretch but he was probably a Top 5 guy there for long stretches.

And being at or near the main event Taker wasn’t a great thing when his feuds consisted of Fake Taker , Mabel , Yoko , Giant Gonzalez.

Got to disagree with the Taker hate he was the coolest thing about WWF, he was heavy metal, Friday 13th, Hellraiser cool to me. He also had the coolest merch I want the one shirt with him on the tombstone slice the sleeves off that bitch and wear it to the gym. The one non EC FN W shirt I would do that. The Mankind feud was my favorite non-Bret thing in wrestling it was cooler to me than NWO(Hogan=dork). I loved seeing him as Champ, valid gripes about that reign in this thread but that was my guy seeing him win the belt after being screwed over by the heels for years would be like seeing your favorite sports team win a Super Bowl or whatever, same feeling for me in real time. Him hoisting that belt finally at Mania 13 is still one of my favorite moments. To me his latter career as Diesel version 3.0 was awful and I stopped watching after 99-2000 so whatever happened after that has no effect on how I still see him in 96-97.

May 31, 2024 11:40:03 GMT UT said:

Austin was still pretty far on the heel spectrum at that point - yes the turn officially started with the 3:16 promo but it’s not like it was a flip of the switch and boom - the crowd loved him.

I don’t get the aura stuff - is it because of the darkness of his character or is it being conflated because of years of knowing what happens next?

And up until Mankind - what would you say is Takers biggest or most memorable moment?

Also especially Diesel damn near came in at the main event level and held the title for a year. Razor may be a stretch but he was probably a Top 5 guy there for long stretches.

And being at or near the main event Taker wasn’t a great thing when his feuds consisted of Fake Taker , Mabel , Yoko , Giant Gonzalez.

Jake, Warrior, Kamala, taking the belt off Hogan and I disagree about Yoko, all of these were great sports entertainment feuds.  Yes there was skullduggery after he beat the Hulkster but still he took the title from him which was more significant than anything Diesel did during his year long reign.

Undertaker was a death incarnate version of the Terminator that captured the imagination. It certainly wasn't a nostalgia thing looking back making him bigger than he was. 

That Yoko feud was mostly terrible.

And I’ll fight back on Taker/Kamala and even Taker/Jake being better than Diesel/Bret and Diesel/Shawn in that era.

The Hogan title win was a blip and that was a much better version of the character. I could accept that version.

I will agree with you on Austin, to me at his best in 96-97 solid gold has aged like wine, knowing what we know now about Vince being the owner and where that feud went it was awesome to see the seeds planted as far back as 96 on the rewatch recently. One episode in 96 he basically called Vince out for booking a bunch of stupid crap(he was burying Marc Mero on commentary). Basically said yeah this is stupid crap, you got a lot of that going on around here don’t you 😂

Every Undertaker feud before Mankind is straight up, by the definition, WrestleCrap. And even the Mankind feud has stretches of WrestleCrap too (Buried Alive). Now it's the ideal version of WrestleCrap, the best it will ever get, but it's still WrestleCrap and I hate it. Even has a boy, I was like, this shit is so lame. 

May 31, 2024 19:58:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Every Undertaker feud before Mankind is straight up, by the definition, WrestleCrap. And even the Mankind feud has stretches of WrestleCrap too (Buried Alive). Now it's the ideal version of WrestleCrap, the best it will ever get, but it's still WrestleCrap and I hate it. Even has a boy, I was like, this shit is so lame. 

I almost went there, but Kilgore did go there. Didn’t quite want to go to Wrestlecrap levels but some of it is certainly worthy.

Thankfully I think things pick up for him with Kane at the beginning … though I could be wrong. And then I’m going to be annoyed that Taker just beats him at Mania. Kane should have went over 10/10.

May 31, 2024 21:18:59 GMT UT said:

May 31, 2024 19:58:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Every Undertaker feud before Mankind is straight up, by the definition, WrestleCrap. And even the Mankind feud has stretches of WrestleCrap too (Buried Alive). Now it's the ideal version of WrestleCrap, the best it will ever get, but it's still WrestleCrap and I hate it. Even has a boy, I was like, this shit is so lame. 

I almost went there, but Kilgore did go there. Didn’t quite want to go to Wrestlecrap levels but some of it is certainly worthy.

Thankfully I think things pick up for him with Kane at the beginning … though I could be wrong. And then I’m going to be annoyed that Taker just beats him at Mania. Kane should have went over 10/10.

Everything I said about Undertaker, Kane is worst! He's the WrestleCrap storylines of Undertaker, except he sucks shit in the ring on top of that. Wrestling would be better off he was treated like the previous Monsters of the Year and just went away after 'Taker beat him at WrestleMania. 

I need to post about something I actually like next, this is too much lol.  

I’ll tentatively disagree with Kane but I also haven’t made it that far again. I just remember loving the early version of him , the look and the fact seemed like a bonafide monster.

As the years went on they ruined him.

Big fan of the discussion even if I strongly disagree with UT and Kilgore . Shootist already touched on some of my planned talking points. Gonna try responding to everything without going through the trouble of multi-quoting. At the end of the day, I doubt any minds will be changed. It all boils down to how you view pro wrestling. I'm a sports entertainment guy til the day I die who thinks wrestling works best as a live action Saturday morning cartoon for preteen boys. Taker absolutely kills it when viewed through this lens. Others who prefer something more akin to ECW or the Attitude Era may not be as big on the larger-than-life Deadman. And that's fine too! 

UT of all people should know wrestling is about more than "good matches." Taker had a mystique from day one. Dude just hit different. Fans picked up on it right away. Check out his Survivor Series '90 debut for proof. He was an impressive squasher during the squash match era. The Tombstone was lethal, and the chokeslam, Old School, flying clothesline all impressive/cool. The no selling made him a badass, the sit ups an even bigger badass.

Just the way he carried himself as a horror movie monster made him cool to Neo Zeed , Shoot, myself, and millions of others. Being a fan of 90s Taker is hardly historical revisionism or some sort of controversial hot take. Again, there were millions of us! (more on this later) His Survivor Series debut. The angle with Jake & Warrior. BEATING HOGAN FOR THE WWF CHAMPIONSHIP a year into his run. The memorable split with Jake the Jerk. All those monster mash feuds (I'll circle back later to these as well). This stuff is legendary. Had he disappeared in '97 I genuinely believe he'd still be considered an icon by many an old school Golden Age/New Generation fan. Taker was the premier special attraction of his day just as Andre had been before him.

It is weird how Austin & Taker had poor chemistry. I liked Summerslam 98 and IYH May 97 was alright. All the rest sucked. Yet let's not forget it's Austin who requested/demanded Taker every time he had a spat with the office. Taker basically served as big money Austin's security blanket. Another feather in the Deadman's cap.

I never thought about it before because I was into it in real time, but his '97 title reign was pretty lackluster. I liked the Mankind match in April, but even that felt old hat, stretching out a feud that had gone cold. Austin, 'Rooq, and Vader were honestly midcard PPV defenses. The Bret match was Big Time though. Yet, as UT stated, who else was there? Taker getting a "You Deserve It" transitional title reign before that even became a thing was the best available option at that time. Nobi nailed it here. Taker had been screwed so many times it was cathartic to see him finally recapture the title and actually get a lengthy run with it this time around. Oh, and Undertaker >>>>> Sid. Not even close. Then. Now. Forever.

Kilgore calling Taker a relic seems like it should have been true...but I don't think it was. People were still hugely into Taker during the Gang Warfare era! Kane/Taker is a fondly remembered feud with many, including myself, still considering it the best thing Kane ever did. Taker was a part of the 2 iconic Hell In A Cells which put that stipulation on the map. Taker/Austin at Summerslam 98 did huge business. Then, when he did transition to Gang Warfare, Taker was in the highest rated segment in Raw history opposite Austin, and the Higher Power reveal generated enormous buzz. Point is Taker was big bucks throughout the Attitude Era. Relics don't draw that many dimes.

LOVED Taker's freak show spectacles with Kamala, Giant Gonzalez, Yoko, Underfaker, and later Mankind & Kane. All that stuff is pure pro wrestling to me. Yeah, most of the matches sucked. WHO CARES?! That stuff was HYPE. Undertaker vs. the Ugandan Giant! Undertaker vs. an 8-foot-tall giant in a muscle suit!  Undertaker going for the title vs. the fattest of the fatties! Undertaker ASCENDS TO HEAVEN!! Undertaker vs. his Evil Doppelganger!!! The HYPE/build for these feuds is worth more than a hundred 5* matches. Heck, you can even throw Taker/Bundy in there. All those irresistible force vs. immovable object feuds are so pure it's painful. Pro Wrestling 101. Love it. Some kids were into boring Bret. I was a Taker monster mash guy all the way.

Fwiw my favorite Taker matches from his early years are Taker/Warrior in a Bodybag Match from '91 and Taker/Diesel from WM 12. 

Anecdotal evidence time as if it's needed to "prove" Taker was popular throughout the 90s. I've posted all this stuff before. Comb through the archives if you doubt me. It's all there.

I was a heel fan growing up. When a previously cool heel turned face, I typically turned on them. But not with Taker. Taker was so cool even I stuck with him when he went good guy. This rarely happened in those days!

Lex Luger absolutely deserves 100% of the credit for making wrestling cool again in my neighborhood during the Summer of '93 by turning patriot and slamming Yoko. No doubt about it. BUT Taker was the 1b to Lex's 1a among the local youth. Then wrestling hit a lull in the neighborhood again in early '94 when Taker was off tv for months after ascending to heaven and Lex was forced to share (soon relinquish entirely) the spotlight with boring Bret.

But then it picked up again in the Summer of '94 when THE COOL OLDER KIDS at soccer practice were SUPER into Taker (and Mr. Backlund). This wasn't the usual crowd of my fellow weirdos and slightly younger kids who started out as my brother's friends. No. These were the big men on campus, a bunch of Zack Morrises and AC Slaters, Brandon Walshs and Dylan McKays, just being super into all things Taker (and Mr. Backlund). Undertaker sightings were HYPE.

*Pro Tip: Kids doing Taker mannerisms on the playground is also > all the 5* matches.  

A returning Taker got the biggest babyface reaction of the night when I attended Survivor Series '95 (it was Goldust on the heel/heat side).

As late as 2001 a friend of mine who no sold the Golden Age and the Attitude Era, didn't care about Hogan or Austin, but knew of Taker, and considered him cool. Taker would be his favorite once I finally converted him to the Sport of the Kings. And this was 2001 Taker! Literally the worst incarnation of Taker! But he was over with new fan Bryan just by being, well, THE UNDERTAKER! Already a bonafide legend who reached even non-fans during his decade+ of dominance. Put it this way. I was not a Monster Truck guy. Yet even I knew of two monster trucks- Bigfoot & Gravedigger. I presume they were the Hogan & Taker of the Monster Truck world. Gravedigger reached me just as Taker reached non-wrestling fans such as Bryan.

In closing, all you Undertaker haters will...

REST
IN 
PEACE

*gong*