Jun 24, 2024 18:36:36 GMT UT said:

Why the hell was Tom Brandi chosen as the guy to “save” Sable. Lordy.

Wrong question. The correct question is "why the hell did WWF wimp out on having Tom Brandi save Sable?" Sal Sincere 4 Life.
Also, early 1998 me genuinely believed Brandi was going to free Sable from the evil clutches of Mero and become a mega popular babyface in the process. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But I was a true believer.

Jun 25, 2024 0:22:36 GMT Strobe said:

But again, Bob Holly. Is this a rib?

It's an extreme comparison, but it was the same rationale. Instead of having star vs. star, let's book a match around an angle and hope it carries.

It's also a different time and place. Early 1998 WWF still had some restraint and decorum for their major shows, by 2004 WWE had two major titles, so the prize isn't as significant as it was back then.

That was just one element, I listed several reasons why they went with the safer option and with the benefit of hindsight it's difficult to say they got it wrong.

Moreover, I brought it up because there's a larger conversation to be had about perception and the value of the main event spot. I believe there is a sub-text when you see an established main event guy take on a newer star. If you fail to establish it or erode it, then you create a dissonance in the fanbase that leads to a lack of interest. I'm not saying that's what would have happened with Owen, but it's something I've been noticing more in modern times and I believe the WWF was more mindful of it then - especially as they were gearing towards the Austin era.

Jun 25, 2024 0:22:36 GMT Strobe said:

Did the Taker/Kane angle need to be on PPV? Certainly not. Angles to sell PPVs normally take place on TV with the larger available audience. However, I think having Kane turn on Taker in a big title match was more effective than if they had somehow had it on a random RAW and there happened to be a casket about.

It also makes the most logical sense to have it as a show closer. Could they have blown their load and booked Taker/Kane early with Kane squashing a hesitant Taker? Sure, but the intrigue wouldn't have been there for the Wrestlemania clash. Also I can see there being less value in giving Owen this spot, only to promote a mid-card title match.

I don’t understand why you think they needed a “safer” option. Taker and Shawn weren’t the draw of that show - Stone Cold was and the Rumble itself is obviously there as well. Taker/Shawn didn’t draw anyone in that wasn’t already going to be watching.

Also it’s the same rationale but it’s not rational. The Bob Holly “angle” isn’t in the same chapter or even book as the Montreal Screwjob.

Jun 25, 2024 1:46:17 GMT Baker said:

Jun 24, 2024 18:36:36 GMT UT said:

Why the hell was Tom Brandi chosen as the guy to “save” Sable. Lordy.

Wrong question. The correct question is "why the hell did WWF wimp out on having Tom Brandi save Sable?" Sal Sincere 4 Life.
Also, early 1998 me genuinely believed Brandi was going to free Sable from the evil clutches of Mero and become a mega popular babyface in the process. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But I was a true believer.

Brandi is awful. Sorry Baker. He’s an 80’s style jobber in an 90s promotion.

My power rankings post Rumble

1. Stone Cold
2. Kane
3. The Rock
4. New Age Outlaws
5. Owen


My shit rankings
1. Flying Savios
2. The Lightheavyweight division
3. Tom Brandi
4. Golddust
5. This NWA Angle

Jun 25, 2024 2:55:59 GMT UT said:

I don’t understand why you think they needed a “safer” option.

In the short term, it helps promote Kane/Taker at Wrestlemania which was a major focus of the build.

Long term, they're planting the seeds of Taker desiring the WWF Championship which would build into the babyface vs. babyface Austin/Taker feud.

That may have been the other reason why I brought up Hardcore, as an example that you can't just plug anyone into a title match with the idea that the rest of the card doesn't matter.

It also goes back to the idea of perception and clearly they didn't want fans to view Owen as a main event talent. Somebody that could challenge for the title on RAW? Sure. However, ultimately they wanted him as a gate-keeper.

I’ve always thought the dumpster getting pushed over with Cactus and Charlie a bit exaggerated at its core but damn if they don’t do a great job selling it.

Jun 26, 2024 2:04:45 GMT UT said:

I’ve always thought the dumpster getting pushed over with Cactus and Charlie a bit exaggerated at its core but damn if they don’t do a great job selling it.

I know right? It was pretty brilliant and them starting to figure out how to win ratings, if you were just casually flipping through channels that night it was the kind of shit that would stop you even if you weren’t a wrestling fan. It’s like oh shit what happened

I find the booking of Golddust strange. deemphasizing the character is 1 thing but it felt like they were tearing the character down. Maybe creative had nothing for Dustin.

The Owen chat has me wondering what the plans were for HBK after Mania. Because I get the rationale that HBK/Taker is clearly a bigger match and an extremely effective place to do the big fire angle, so maybe it works best to delay HBK/Owen. Owen goes after HBK, HHH obviously gets involved, so Owen decides to take out HBK's pal first. Owen goes over HHH at Mania, and then Owen/HBK can have some nasty brawls. Otherwise, who is HBK facing at Unforgiven or Over the Edge?

Also, why do we think the Outlaws never outright joined DX (was hinted at, but were only associates) until after Mania XIV?

The Dumpster angle was real to me, brother. They sold it so well. I've seen people say they killed it later that night by having Cactus & Funk return at the end of Raw rather than milking their injuries for a couple weeks, and maybe those people have a point, but I'd be lying if I told you Brandon and I weren't marking out when our hardcore heroes returned.
==========
My totally biased, 100% speculative theory fueled by little more than 90s HBK hate on why the Outlaws never became official DX members until after WM 14 is because HBK snobbishly didn't want those ham and eggers in his elite little clique.

Jun 27, 2024 1:16:27 GMT Baker said:

The Dumpster angle was real to me, brother. They sold it so well. I've seen people say they killed it later that night by having Cactus & Funk return at the end of Raw rather than milking their injuries for a couple weeks, and maybe those people may a point, but I'd be lying if I told you Brandon and I weren't marking out when our hardcore heroes returned.
==========
My totally biased, 100% speculative theory fueled by little more than 90s HBK hate on why the Outlaws never became official DX members until after WM 14 is because HBK snobbishly didn't want those ham and eggers in his elite little clique.

Oh I get it too and it’s one of the things I remember most from this era. I’m not shitting on it - the WWE sold it like the craziest thing ever (even after a man got lit on fire in a casket right before this RAW).

Just thinking about the actual physics of it - like there a safe ass fall. Why did the dumpster make it worse? Especially with all the packing peanuts?

Jun 26, 2024 23:25:33 GMT Strobe said:

The Owen chat has me wondering what the plans were for HBK after Mania. Because I get the rationale that HBK/Taker is clearly a bigger match and an extremely effective place to do the big fire angle, so maybe it works best to delay HBK/Owen. Owen goes after HBK, HHH obviously gets involved, so Owen decides to take out HBK's pal first. Owen goes over HHH at Mania, and then Owen/HBK can have some nasty brawls. Otherwise, who is HBK facing at Unforgiven or Over the Edge?

Also, why do we think the Outlaws never outright joined DX (was hinted at, but were only associates) until after Mania XIV?

I'd imagine Shawn would have sold the loss and taken time off. Then when things heat up around the NBA finals, I could see Vince getting on the phone and bringing Shawn in to mix up with the Nation of Domination. Then it just becomes a matter of how early do you pull the trigger on HHH/HBK since that always seemed like the inevitable match, so much so, they ran it ad nauseum during the Ruthless Aggression.

As an aside, is Bad Blood 2004 the worst best match in history? An attempt at a classic that just never worked? Orton/Cena feels like it belongs in the mix as well.

Y'know, I've never seen a Road Dogg or Billy Gunn interview to see what they have to say. I'm sure it's one of those things they went backwards and forwards on but since they had Tyson joining D-X they wanted to make the group feel more exclusive and NAO just happened to work better as 'unofficial' members.

I also think it may have been forward planning. By the time they were sure that NAO was over enough to help boost the stable, HBK was probably getting ready to wind things down and they had Syxx coming in. So relaunching the whole stable with three new members was a smart way to generate momentum not only for the stable but also the company.

Jun 29, 2024 11:19:27 GMT Big Pete said:

I'd imagine Shawn would have sold the loss and taken time off. Then when things heat up around the NBA finals, I could see Vince getting on the phone and bringing Shawn in to mix up with the Nation of Domination. Then it just becomes a matter of how early do you pull the trigger on HHH/HBK since that always seemed like the inevitable match, so much so, they ran it ad nauseum during the Ruthless Aggression.

If we imagine the back injury did not happen, do we think Vince is choosing to have HBK take time off when he is so short on top heels that Steve Williams, Steven Regal and even John Tenta were being considered as Austin opponents?

Now Michaels might have lost his smile again anyway post-Mania and not really given Vince a choice, but 1998 WWF could look very different if HBK does not hurt his back and is on TV post-Mania. The Outlaws were lined up to join DX and X-Pac was an obvious fit as a Kliq member, so I see them joining anyway, but if HBK is still around, do they still transition to faces? Do they keep running Austin vs. DX after Mania? I can't see it as that would not really work with Austin vs. McMahon.

Jun 29, 2024 11:19:27 GMT Big Pete said:

Y'know, I've never seen a Road Dogg or Billy Gunn interview to see what they have to say. I'm sure it's one of those things they went backwards and forwards on but since they had Tyson joining D-X they wanted to make the group feel more exclusive and NAO just happened to work better as 'unofficial' members.

I also think it may have been forward planning. By the time they were sure that NAO was over enough to help boost the stable, HBK was probably getting ready to wind things down and they had Syxx coming in. So relaunching the whole stable with three new members was a smart way to generate momentum not only for the stable but also the company.

My initial thought was in relation to Tyson as well. I don't know how early they had mapped out exactly how they were going to use Tyson. Perhaps the No Way Out of Texas main event 8-man was going to be the official joining of the New Age Outlaws, but HBK's injury changed things.

Baker I know you’re a Quebecer guy - you can’t have enjoyed the older fatter version in 98?

Jul 2, 2024 1:29:01 GMT UT said:

Baker I know you’re a Quebecer guy - you can’t have enjoyed the older fatter version in 98?

It was rough. They were a bad fit for that era to begin with and WWF didn't even give them a chance. They debuted cold, got zero push, new outfits, and had their epic theme taken away. WWF stripped 'em of everything that made them fun and cool back in 93-94. It shouldn't have been THAT bad. Jacques was a master heat generator and that's not something you lose with age, while Pierre would still be taking nutty Foleyesque bumps a quarter century later. But, yeah, that little 1998 run was rough. 

Jul 2, 2024 1:41:59 GMT Baker said:

Jul 2, 2024 1:29:01 GMT UT said:

Baker I know you’re a Quebecer guy - you can’t have enjoyed the older fatter version in 98?

It was rough. They were a bad fit for that era to begin with and WWF didn't even give them a chance. They debuted cold, got zero push, new outfits, and had their epic theme taken away. WWF stripped 'em of everything that made them fun and cool back in 93-94. It shouldn't have been THAT bad. Jacques was a master heat generator and that's not something you lose with age, while Pierre would still be taking nutty Foleyesque bumps a quarter century later. But, yeah, that little 1998 run was rough. 

Yeah it’s one of the more bizarre things of this era. They just don’t belong and I’m not sure what they could have done to make them fit a bit more.

- Imagine spending money on a PPV in 98 that featured a 10+ minute Godwins/Quebecers match that ended with a clothesline. Also featured a Mero/Goldust vs Headbangers and NOD vs DOA 198.

- Unsanctioned matches? How are these even a thing?

- Kane getting face pops after starting Taker on fire is wild, Kane is cool.

- Paul Bearer is not. Underrated creep and heat magnet.

- It’s crazy the RNR express are younger than an AJ Styles here. They are also the ugliest fucking sex appeal guys ever. What was wrong with people?

Jul 2, 2024 2:52:33 GMT UT said:

- Imagine spending money on a PPV in 98 that featured a 10+ minute Godwins/Quebecers match 

lol had a few discussions with Pete about the WTFness of that match a year or two back in another HoW thread. WWF out there running a heel vs. heel match between two ice cold teams on PPV. I did see part of that PPV at this rather obscure guy Eric's house but can't remember if I had to plunk some money down or if he had the illegal box.

Jul 3, 2024 1:14:45 GMT Baker said:

Jul 2, 2024 2:52:33 GMT UT said:

- Imagine spending money on a PPV in 98 that featured a 10+ minute Godwins/Quebecers match 

lol had a few discussions with Pete about the WTFness of that match a year or two back in another HoW thread. WWF out there running a heel vs. heel match between two ice cold teams on PPV. I did see part of that PPV at this rather obscure guy Eric's house but can't remember if I had to plunk some money down or if he had the illegal box.

Oofta I hope you didn’t, it’s easily the worst PPV I’ve seen so far (going back to like 94). The highlight being Vader getting killed with a wrench.

Otherwise the aforementioned tag matches plus Savio replacing HBK in the Main Event. Just terrible.

Jul 3, 2024 16:40:13 GMT UT said:

Otherwise the aforementioned tag matches plus Savio replacing HBK in the Main Event. Just terrible.

lol Savio replacing HBK is an all-time level carny move. Jesus. The things you can get away with when you're hot. But I still thought it was a fun match! And you have to love that babyface side. Idk. I'm sure it's a terrible show through 2024 eyes, but 1998 me didn't hate what I saw. It was certainly no Uncensored '96. Had it down as more of your usual, run of the mill 5/10 show. 

Jul 4, 2024 1:18:30 GMT Baker said:

Jul 3, 2024 16:40:13 GMT UT said:

Otherwise the aforementioned tag matches plus Savio replacing HBK in the Main Event. Just terrible.

lol Savio replacing HBK is an all-time level carny move. Jesus. The things you can get away with when you're hot. But I still thought it was a fun match! And you have to love that babyface side. Idk. I'm sure it's a terrible show through 2024 eyes, but 1998 me didn't hate what I saw. It was certainly no Uncensored '96. Had it down as more of your usual, run of the mill 5/10 show. 

Man that Savio thing was a wet fart, he’s a fine worker and apparently beloved by the “boys” but he was as over as a fart at a funeral. Wish they could have got the rumored Sid or even possibly let Chyna get in the fold.

Crazy that I read today when the tickets went on sale the advertised poster featured: Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels , Taker , Pillman and Bulldog.

None of the 5 were there. I think the only one on that card that lasted was Austin.

Anyways agree to disagree and I don’t think 2024 eyes have much to do with it… I’ve enjoyed so much of this rewatch but that card offered next to nothing aside from Vader dying.

Lukewarm take….

Sable couldn’t carry Sunny’s bikini.

Not going to go as far to say Sable isn’t attractive, she obviously is but she’s never fully been my type. Sunny on the other hand is as HAWT as any woman in WWF history. Good lord.

Also can’t care about Chainsaw Charlie or Terry Funk. That’s one I’ll never get.

Finally got to finish WM14 … uneven show but such a great and maybe even overlooked moment to end that.

And as much shit as Shawn gets for this era and deservingly so, that dude never failed to lay it all on the line when it matters. What a gutsy performance. Incredible.

Was the post Mania return for X-PAC the greatest moment of his career or was it the upset of Razor?

Jul 9, 2024 1:29:56 GMT UT said:

And as much shit as Shawn gets for this era and deservingly so, that dude never failed to lay it all on the line when it matters.

Dude sabotaged way too many big PPV matches for me to ever agree with that. 

- No Way Out is the last pit-stop before the company would finally find it's stride and begin to dominate the Monday Night Wars. It suffers as a result and is possibly the most irrelevant February PPV til No Way Out 2007.

- The Quebecers vs. Godwinns match speaks to how poor the depth was in the WWF and just how well they worked around it. Both teams would virtually disappear and outside of PCO working B4A and Mideon resurfacing during the Ministry, everyone else was largely benched. It's a tough industry, but I'd much rather see that than seeing these teams stay on TV and make the product seem stale as a result.

- The Savio Vega reveal absolutely sucks. With that said, I'm with Baker on the main event and think it's a pretty good match and a nice precursor to matches we'd end up seeing like the DX/Radicals vs. Rock n Sock/Too Cool match down the line.

- Actually enjoyed the opening match and thought they did a pretty good job of giving the Headbangers the rub while promoting the Mero/Goldust program. Sunny vs. Sable is strange in the sense that as charismatic as Sunny is, all her angles in the WWF tanked. Not saying that Sable was producing Shakespear, but I don't think any of Sunny's angles touch the Sable/Mero stuff and it's not a particularly high bar.

- I appreciated the attempt at a light heavyweight division and enjoyed some of the talent that was showcased, but it's clear that Vince never believed in it, so it faded before they could get too carried away with all the bollocks. I don't think any of the matches ever got a chance to be really great, it seems like it may have peaked with that Canadian Stampede match.

- For mine, Wrestlemania XIV is top to bottom a great show and the WWF absolutely nailed it. I can't think of any misfires, everything was on point.

Jul 9, 2024 11:38:51 GMT Big Pete said:

For mine, Wrestlemania XIV is top to bottom a great show and the WWF absolutely nailed it. I can't think of any misfires, everything was on point.

Agreed. It is a great show, despite having no great matches on it. Fantastic video packages throughout and each segment is memorable.

- DX band doing their sloppy mash-up of Star-Spangled Banner and American the Beautiful to boos.

- Tag team battle royal would normally be meh, but LOD debuting the new look with Sunny as their manager is a cool moment and they win.

- Taka/Aguila is a fun cruiser sprint with cool spots that gave the show something different and was quite a fresh thing in the Fed.

- Famous Rock interview with Gennifer Flowers, which feels like a true breakthrough moment.

- Owen/HHH is really solid and has the memorable finish with Chyna blinding Slaughter and low blowing Owen.

- Mixed tag is a top piece of work, pretty much a miracle match, making Sable look not just competent, but good.

- Even Double J coming out, complete with Tennessee Lee intro, alongside Gennifer Flowers is fun enough.

- Rock/Shamrock is short and fun enough. Finish and post-match is memorable. Rock bleeding from the mouth, Shamrock not releasing the hold, and Faarooq coming out but not helping Rocky.

- The great WWF Attitude video package with the old timers talking about their time and the new breed of wrestler.

- Dumpster match is fun with the big memorable ladder spot.

- The first and, by far, best Pete Rose appearance with his great shitting on Boston and subsequent Tombstoning by Kane.

- Taker's iconic druid entrance and a second miracle match, as many more years would show us that it is surely impossible for a Taker/Kane match to be watchable.

- Main event was hampered by the condition of both men, but still a good match, and felt suitably big with Tyson involved. Austin won, as he should have, and Tyson knocked out Michaels, as he should have. Even Tyson's excited fast count does not hurt things.

Could Owen and Shamrock have left with the titles? Sure. But they did not really put a foot wrong all night. Only 3 hours long as well. Perfect length.

Jul 9, 2024 3:05:37 GMT UT said:

Was the post Mania return for X-PAC the greatest moment of his career or was it the upset of Razor?

I'm going with the post-Mania return because he made fun of Hogan & Bischoff.