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Post by c on Jan 31, 2021 2:15:13 GMT
I was seeing loss of efficacy of the vaccine, but the vaccine is not a true one and seems to be focused on reducing severity, which made the reports weird. If it drops from 65% to 50% in terms of prevention it means nothing really if the goal of the vaccine is to block the pneumonia part of COVID not actually stop transmission.
Helping poor nations will not over well in the US. Most of the GOP thinks you all can go fuck yourselves, and many feel the rest of the world can handle the world's problems here and the US should isolate and focus on itself.
From what I am hearing they are saying COVID will be like the measles and a forever virus. It mutates way faster than measle though, which may be a problem down the line.
Sounds like the US got it's shit together finally and has a plan to mass vaccinate by the summer. It will remove us a petri dish at least. Kind of shocked we did not mutate the shit out of COVID given how far and wide we let it spread.
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Post by nazzer on Jan 31, 2021 2:22:37 GMT
Maybe I'm dumb here. Please help me understand the vaccines; and testing positive.
These vaccines, as mRNA vaccines are only forcing your body to produce things that will make you ready to fight the virus if you get it right? But you will still get it, but you will just be able to fight it off. So then people can just be carriers and survive?
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Post by c on Jan 31, 2021 3:43:01 GMT
Pretty much. They have some effectiveness at preventing spread, but also reduce severity if you do get it.
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Post by nazzer on Jan 31, 2021 4:13:48 GMT
Pretty much. They have some effectiveness at preventing spread, but also reduce severity if you do get it. So the definition of herd immunity will be completely arbitrary; as the metric for determining success at controlling the virus (rate of positive infection) isn't necessarily stopped by the vaccines.
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Post by c on Jan 31, 2021 6:48:24 GMT
Yeah, herd immunity is basically bullshit. Look at measles infections. We have 92 percent vaccination rate and people still are getting measles. Meanwhile with COVID people said if 40% of the population got it it would disappear.
The goal right now is to just make sure people stop dying of COVID. If we neuter's it ability to kill then we can open up everything and not worry about hospitals running out space and can open everything back up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 8:13:24 GMT
It's funny that vaccine efficacy is not really that important a figure when it comes to coronavirus. For herd immunity, we are interested in how effective the vaccine is at preventing infection. For returning life to normal, we are interested in prevention of severe outcomes. Symptomatic infection is not a great measure for this virus, when you consider the impact of asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic infection on transmission. People get too caught up in efficacy percentages, although I find it likely that high efficacy will correspond with transmission reduction, when it comes to the topic of eradication. So if we do ever eradicate, it'll be the mRNA vaccines that probably do it.
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Post by Ness on Feb 2, 2021 23:22:33 GMT
We've had 2 people out from work for a few weeks now. Maybe ~3 others have had to quarantine. All things considered a handful of people doesn't seem too bad, especially since the office isn't even trying to prevent it.
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Post by iNCY on Feb 2, 2021 23:34:14 GMT
It's funny that vaccine efficacy is not really that important a figure when it comes to coronavirus. For herd immunity, we are interested in how effective the vaccine is at preventing infection. For returning life to normal, we are interested in prevention of severe outcomes. Symptomatic infection is not a great measure for this virus, when you consider the impact of asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic infection on transmission. People get too caught up in efficacy percentages, although I find it likely that high efficacy will correspond with transmission reduction, when it comes to the topic of eradication. So if we do ever eradicate, it'll be the mRNA vaccines that probably do it. Or ya' know... The fact that 90yo people on Dialysis with three bypasses and a tumor removal under their belt are going to die of something is hugely overlooked. Todd,you are really good at statistical analysis, when I looked into it the median age for Covid death is 83 in the UK. Is this then a bit of hyperbolic overreaction from a nation where life expectancy is 81 🤔
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Legend
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Post by The Kid on Feb 3, 2021 12:09:20 GMT
Grandpa PIII got his second vaccine dose, and is apparently getting WRECKED by side effects. Uh oh! How's your grandpa doing now? I'm getting my 2nd vaccine on Monday; day after the Super Bowl. I've heard about all these crazy side effects from it. The high fever one seems to be the most common. Not looking forward to that. The ones that scares me the most that I've heard about happening to males is Bells Palsy. Hopefully everything goes well for my wife and I next week.
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Post by 🤯 on Feb 3, 2021 14:24:03 GMT
Grandpa PIII got his second vaccine dose, and is apparently getting WRECKED by side effects. Uh oh! How's your grandpa doing now? I'm getting my 2nd vaccine on Monday; day after the Super Bowl. I've heard about all these crazy side effects from it. The high fever one seems to be the most common. Not looking forward to that. The ones that scares me the most that I've heard about happening to males is Bells Palsy. Hopefully everything goes well for my wife and I next week. son's grandpa, my dad. He said he finally felt back to fine, start to finish, on Sunday. So second dose Wednesday, like utter shit Thursday and Friday, gradual rebound on Saturday, back to normal on Sunday. He had zero reaction to first dose. His reaction to second dose is consistent with some much younger local firefighter buddies here. Is second dose just that much bigger than the first?
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Legend
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Post by The Kid on Feb 3, 2021 14:32:06 GMT
How's your grandpa doing now? I'm getting my 2nd vaccine on Monday; day after the Super Bowl. I've heard about all these crazy side effects from it. The high fever one seems to be the most common. Not looking forward to that. The ones that scares me the most that I've heard about happening to males is Bells Palsy. Hopefully everything goes well for my wife and I next week. son 's grandpa, my dad. He said he finally felt back to fine, start to finish, on Sunday. So second dose Wednesday, like utter shit Thursday and Friday, gradual rebound on Saturday, back to normal on Sunday. He had zero reaction to first dose. His reaction to second dose is consistent with some much younger local firefighter buddies here. Is second dose just that much bigger than the first? Yeah. I don't know why to be honest. Apparently from all the stories I've heard, it's the second dose that gives everyone side effects. I think it basically gives you COVID for 24 hours or some shit. I hope my wife and I can get through it as easy as possible.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Feb 3, 2021 14:42:10 GMT
son 's grandpa, my dad. He said he finally felt back to fine, start to finish, on Sunday. So second dose Wednesday, like utter shit Thursday and Friday, gradual rebound on Saturday, back to normal on Sunday. He had zero reaction to first dose. His reaction to second dose is consistent with some much younger local firefighter buddies here. Is second dose just that much bigger than the first? Yeah. I don't know why to be honest. Apparently from all the stories I've heard, it's the second dose that gives everyone side effects. I think it basically gives you COVID for 24 hours or some shit. I hope my wife and I can get through it as easy as possible. Maybe this is something where someone more informed on the topic, like Todd or maybe c can weigh in, but I still don't understand how long the vaccines are theoretically supposed to protect recipients. Or at least how it differs from just contacting corona? Like my workout buddy got corona over xmas, got over it, and presumably now has antibodies that know how to recognize and fight the virus... Just like as if he got the vaccine? So what extra benefit does the vaccine give someone who's already had the virus? And then since nothing helps stop the transmission, what's the point? We just get vaxxed or catch the virus at some point, get those sweet sweet antibodies, then resume the "old normal" passing corona back and forth until it maybe mutates enough to be a threat again?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 16:14:29 GMT
It's funny that vaccine efficacy is not really that important a figure when it comes to coronavirus. For herd immunity, we are interested in how effective the vaccine is at preventing infection. For returning life to normal, we are interested in prevention of severe outcomes. Symptomatic infection is not a great measure for this virus, when you consider the impact of asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic infection on transmission. People get too caught up in efficacy percentages, although I find it likely that high efficacy will correspond with transmission reduction, when it comes to the topic of eradication. So if we do ever eradicate, it'll be the mRNA vaccines that probably do it. Or ya' know... The fact that 90yo people on Dialysis with three bypasses and a tumor removal under their belt are going to die of something is hugely overlooked. Todd ,you are really good at statistical analysis, when I looked into it the median age for Covid death is 83 in the UK. Is this then a bit of hyperbolic overreaction from a nation where life expectancy is 81 🤔 This conversation is definitely coming, particularly if the vaccine program continues to go as well as it appears to be going. Excess death will plummet next year. I will say though, the UK probably had no choice but to lockdown just because of the strain the virus put on the health service. Already we've heard many reports of cancer patients and the like being unable to access treatment because the health service really is stretched about as far as it can go. Your overall point I agree with.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 16:16:50 GMT
Yeah. I don't know why to be honest. Apparently from all the stories I've heard, it's the second dose that gives everyone side effects. I think it basically gives you COVID for 24 hours or some shit. I hope my wife and I can get through it as easy as possible. Maybe this is something where someone more informed on the topic, like Todd or maybe c can weigh in, but I still don't understand how long the vaccines are theoretically supposed to protect recipients. Or at least how it differs from just contacting corona? Like my workout buddy got corona over xmas, got over it, and presumably now has antibodies that know how to recognize and fight the virus... Just like as if he got the vaccine? So what extra benefit does the vaccine give someone who's already had the virus? And then since nothing helps stop the transmission, what's the point? We just get vaxxed or catch the virus at some point, get those sweet sweet antibodies, then resume the "old normal" passing corona back and forth until it maybe mutates enough to be a threat again? That's just a logistical thing. It would be a fucking nightmare trying to track everybody that had a positive test and moving them down the vaccine pecking order, not to mention the uncertainty over how long protection lasts from different strengths of infection. And the vaccine mitigates transmission enormously. 67% after one dose of the AZ vaccine. Coronavirus is going to have to mutate to thrive, these vaccines are too strong.
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Post by UT on Feb 3, 2021 16:26:01 GMT
son 's grandpa, my dad. He said he finally felt back to fine, start to finish, on Sunday. So second dose Wednesday, like utter shit Thursday and Friday, gradual rebound on Saturday, back to normal on Sunday. He had zero reaction to first dose. His reaction to second dose is consistent with some much younger local firefighter buddies here. Is second dose just that much bigger than the first? Yeah. I don't know why to be honest. Apparently from all the stories I've heard, it's the second dose that gives everyone side effects. I think it basically gives you COVID for 24 hours or some shit. I hope my wife and I can get through it as easy as possible. My wife had a bigger reaction to the 2nd dose , I don't think she had Covid symptoms but the injection spot swelled up quite a bit and she was more tired than usual. Her arm was sore for like 3 days though and she was icing it a few times a day. All apparently pretty normal stuff.
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Post by The Kid on Feb 3, 2021 16:27:43 GMT
Yeah. I don't know why to be honest. Apparently from all the stories I've heard, it's the second dose that gives everyone side effects. I think it basically gives you COVID for 24 hours or some shit. I hope my wife and I can get through it as easy as possible. My wife had a bigger reaction to the 2nd dose , I don't think she had Covid symptoms but the injection spot swelled up quite a bit and she was more tired than usual. Her arm was sore for like 3 days though and she was icing it a few times a day. All apparently pretty normal stuff. My wife had the sore/swollen arm after the first vaccine. I was totally fine. It hurt if I pushed against it, but besides that I was good. This 2nd one gives me the worries though.
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Post by UT on Feb 3, 2021 16:32:56 GMT
My wife had a bigger reaction to the 2nd dose , I don't think she had Covid symptoms but the injection spot swelled up quite a bit and she was more tired than usual. Her arm was sore for like 3 days though and she was icing it a few times a day. All apparently pretty normal stuff. My wife had the sore/swollen arm after the first vaccine. I was totally fine. It hurt if I pushed against it, but besides that I was good. This 2nd one gives me the worries though. Yeah the swollen area growing to probably 6 inches wide worried us too ... she sent pics to her friend who is also the infectious control nurse at the hospital and said it wasn’t too concerning and to just take Benadryl and Ice it. First one her arm was a little sore and there was a dime size spot which is fairly normal with a lot of vaccines.
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Legend
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Post by The Kid on Feb 3, 2021 16:57:37 GMT
My wife had the sore/swollen arm after the first vaccine. I was totally fine. It hurt if I pushed against it, but besides that I was good. This 2nd one gives me the worries though. Yeah the swollen area growing to probably 6 inches wide worried us too ... she sent pics to her friend who is also the infectious control nurse at the hospital and said it wasn’t too concerning and to just take Benadryl and Ice it. First one her arm was a little sore and there was a dime size spot which is fairly normal with a lot of vaccines. Your wifes a nurse? Aren't you a teacher? Can't you get the vaccine too?
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Post by UT on Feb 3, 2021 17:03:09 GMT
Yeah the swollen area growing to probably 6 inches wide worried us too ... she sent pics to her friend who is also the infectious control nurse at the hospital and said it wasn’t too concerning and to just take Benadryl and Ice it. First one her arm was a little sore and there was a dime size spot which is fairly normal with a lot of vaccines. Your wifes a nurse? Aren't you a teacher? Can't you get the vaccine too? Yeah she’s a nurse. Goes between the ER and MedSurge though she prefers ER. No I’m not a teacher, I don’t have the temperament for that. Former table games dealer/trainer/supervisor. I’ve lived my life in the world of degenerate gamblers.
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Post by RT on Feb 3, 2021 17:18:15 GMT
Somehow Canada ordered more doses of the vaccine than almost any other country and yet we haven't received nearly the number we were supposed to by now. Nobody seems to know what the fuck is going on and why we aren't getting the doses we're supposed to have. It's really weird.
The government announced yesterday that we would have over 3 million doses by March but that got debunked and the number is closer to 1.9 million, and then they announced that they are "close to a deal" to create a facility in Montreal that will make doses of the vaccine for distribution in Canada, but who knows how fucking long that will take to get up and running.
We went from being ahead of the game to behind the rest of the world in less than a month. I'm kinda pissed too because our company is pushing for all us field techs to get our first dose because we're essential workers, so if we were on schedule I'd probably be getting my first dose soon, but I won't be and have no idea when to expect it. Might not get my first dose for months the way things sound.
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Post by iron maiden on Feb 3, 2021 17:27:14 GMT
The reactions I'm hearing sound very similar to any booster/immunization shot I've had/heard of. Sore arm, possible fever, fatigue for a couple of days.
The Spanish Flu ran out in 2 years 1918-1920 and that was without technology, proper sanitation, vaccines, etc.. I expect we'll see the same here. Back to 'normal' by 2022 (I hope).
I have to ask a question though..I was on a training call yesterday with a bunch of mostly US citizens. They were bitching about having to wear masks and social distance, that they were told by their Dr's masks were ineffective and are still going on vacations. I was flabbergasted at their apparently lack of care and concern. For those of you who live there, is this the glib attitude you've encountered there as well when you have over 400K dead and are still losing still a couple K every day to this?
Meanwhile, we are no better as our people are upset because now if you choose to travel you must be quarantined in a hotel for 3 days under threat of arrest until your test comes back at your expense. People are outraged: 'this is against out rights and freedoms' or compare it to concentration camps. I mean, really? You just went on a vacay during a pandemic. You could have spread it to another country who does not have the technology or health care system in place to deal with an outbreak or you might have brought it back with you as a lovely parting gift. It is NOT the same as genocide. Personally, think those that choose to travel for leisure during a pandemic when the borders are 'supposedly' closed get what they deserve. A case COULD be made for business, but that's another kettle of fish. Personally, I'd like to see the borders CLOSED here like they should have been month ago. None of this 'the borders are closed ...kind of' attitude we've seemed to adopt.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 17:29:28 GMT
Aren't Canada supposedly in bed with the EU for vaccine procurement? The EU is a shitshow at the moment, facing huge delays.
And yeah my wife is a nurse too and had a bit of a dead arm for a day or two. Probably the most common vaccine side effect, nothing to be concerned about.
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Post by iron maiden on Feb 3, 2021 17:37:57 GMT
I honestly don't know where we are at. There's been so much confusion surrounding it. We had an order with Pfizer and Moderna and those both went by the way side somehow. So a bunch of people got their 1st shot and not their second and might not get it within the time frame needed so I don't know what happens then. I think we jumped on with the EU but I don't believe that vaccine is as effective as the Pfizer or Moderna ones. Maybe you or c know? I believe the AstraZeneca one is the one currently sitting with Health Canada.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 17:44:29 GMT
I've had a quick read-up, it sounds like Pfizer and Moderna aren't really ideal for Canada given the huge area that the country covers. They are still yet to approve AstraZeneca and J and J which seems to me like the best way to vaccinate a country like Canada.
Probably the biggest mistake was not investing in the development of these vaccines. That's all the US and the UK have done - thrown shitloads of money at it, and it's paid off.
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Post by iron maiden on Feb 3, 2021 17:56:27 GMT
Yes, that was an oversight I would say.
Do you know, The difference between the Astra Zeneca and J&J ones compared to the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA ones?
I am reading that the J&J one '...is 85 per cent effective against severe illness a month after the injection is given, and 66 per cent effective against both moderate and severe illness.' Compared to 95% effectiveness of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Unsure about the AstraZeneca one.
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Post by The Kid on Feb 3, 2021 17:59:01 GMT
Yeah so I’m totally going to stop reading this thread until after my shot because it’s going to start fucking with my anxiety. 😂
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Post by Ness on Feb 3, 2021 18:12:14 GMT
This thread is basically telling me not to get it. I mean I already wasn't gonna...
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Post by nath45 on Feb 3, 2021 20:47:21 GMT
In slightly off topic news, bands Stone Temple Pilots, Bush and Cheap Trick are now all touring Australia in April and May of this year.
I don't know how this works given the current climate, and as much as I want to go (as Bush & STP are literally playing in my backyard) it kind of highlights how relaxed the entire thing can be, when there's money to be made.
And when state and federal governments begin making exceptions to the rules, for some, I begin questioning why we've have border controls, social distancing laws, etc in the first place.
I'm all for this, and entertainment booming again, but only when the experts go " we're all good 👌"
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Post by nath45 on Feb 3, 2021 20:57:28 GMT
And just like that, for Victoria masks are back for all indoors, this also means the cap on private gatherings in homes will be reduced from 30 to 15 people, and the expanded office capacity due to be introduced on Monday is on pause.
Because of one guy. Because we've made exceptions for the Australian Tennis Open.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 21:26:36 GMT
Yes, that was an oversight I would say. Do you know, The difference between the Astra Zeneca and J&J ones compared to the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA ones? I am reading that the J&J one '...is 85 per cent effective against severe illness a month after the injection is given, and 66 per cent effective against both moderate and severe illness.' Compared to 95% effectiveness of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Unsure about the AstraZeneca one. Technically, the AstraZeneca vaccine is a harmless, modified common cold chimpanzee virus. The chimpanzee virus has never infected humans before (obviously), so by modifying the spike protein (the part of the virus that the immune system reacts to), we can trick the immune system into thinking that this harmless, novel chimp virus is actually the coronavirus. That way if we get ever infected, our immune system can deal with it. That's the idea anyway. It's success is dependant on your immune system falling for the trick. This is why AstraZeneca have seen different results with different dosing. It's also part of the reason why the MHRA felt so confident extending the dosage gap to 12 weeks. Early data shows it helps, and I'm not surprised. The immune system will always respond better when antibodies are ramped up slowly. mRNA vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna) are different entirely. They do not contain a virus at all, but instead use part of its genetic code to send a message to your immune system to produce the relevant antibodies. The success of mRNA vaccines has long been predicted. They are theoretically safer, and less exposed to the usual failings of vaccines. I think the fact that Pfizer were first-past-the-post in trial III with crazy 95% efficacy results against symptomatic infection really warped the perception of what we should expect from these things. There is no question that these vaccines are better, but people should have no preference over which one they have, or which one their country has, or anything like that. It's not going to matter. I don't even think the media should be using efficacy against symptomatic infection as the headline figure - since it doesn't really matter and it's not what we're interested in. In terms of prevention of severe outcomes, AstraZeneca had no hospitalisations in its trials. None. It is 82% effective against symptomatic transmission using the dosage method the UK has gambled on. 67% effective in reducing transmission. Pandemic-ending numbers. The mRNA numbers are even better. In Israel, there have only been 16 hospitalisations since full immunity from Pfizer kicked in, from a group of 715,000. Only 317 people had any symptoms at all. It is a virtual certainty too that Pfizer will be better at reducing transmission than AstraZeneca, because fewer Pfizer subjects are spreaders. I wouldn't panic about J and J. It is true that it was only effective 85% against severe disease, but it is a single dose vaccine that continued to improve its level of protection as time went on. 49 days after the single dose, it was 100% effective. The only barrier now between the world (or the West, at least) and ending this ordeal is how we deal with mutations. The coronavirus has a low rate of mutation so once we stop it spreading, it will slow down. But these are delicate times when it's still rampant. These manufacturers have really got to get a step on.
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