For my unpopular take, Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles would have been curtain jerkers during the WWE's prime years.

Jul 19, 2020 19:26:44 GMT UT said:

Jul 19, 2020 19:15:34 GMT thereallt said:

If you're talking about his reign during Evolution, not even close.   He came out every week and did the same lame, boring 30 minute promo at the opening of every RAW while cos-playing as a prime Ric Flair.  People got sick of HHH real quick..    At least Hogan with the NWO was something fresh at the time.

Fresh? There was nothing fresh about that - Id rather watch someone cosplay Ric Flair than cosplay a grandfather who went back to high school and tried to fit in.

I think this is a prime case of disconnect. Watching in a vacuum 25 years after the fact Hogan could be seen as cringeworthy without context. After years of seeing him as a straitlaced do-gooder, watching him bumble around and seeing his heel work boarder on the slapstick side in real time showed his range. 

Here is another classic moment that comes to mind. It had me in stitches. I was still a huge Hogan hater at this time but his heel work did produce some gems.


anyway...

Ultimate Warrior is criminally underrated for his promo work.

Bret Hart was a solid babyface world champion promo.

Goldberg, for his background, was a great worker.

Jul 19, 2020 19:49:59 GMT thereallt said:

For my unpopular take, Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles would have been curtain jerkers during the WWE's prime years.

Meh maybe - but what prime?

Rock and Wrasslin? Definitely.

Attitude Era , I think AJ definitely could have found a spot on the card. Daniel Bryan I think would have a really hard time.

Actually I take it all back , I could see Styles working just fine in tbt mid card with the likes of Bret , Perfect , Steamboat , Santana and even Macho. Definitely not maineventers though.

Jul 19, 2020 11:09:07 GMT rad said:

Jul 19, 2020 3:53:14 GMT Baker said:

New bad take: HeadCheese is one of the greatest tag teams ever... I would have been cool with a 6-month dominant title reign of more comedic gold; the BookDust of their time. CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME CHANGE MY MIND!?!?

Eww. Yuck. I couldn't stand Head Cheese. They were the opposite of funny.

Leif Cassidy was hilarious though. Peak Al Snow.

Since it's always been my go to for these kind of threads....

Fake Razor & Fake Diesel was an idea worth trying. Yeah, it failed. Big deal. No harm done. Had it worked, the business would have been forever changed. And it did work! In Japan. In Mexico. In basically every other form of entertainment ever. But wrestling fans just weren't ready for this ground breaking concept. Sad.

I wouldn't say Flair was a better face than heel. But I personally prefered him as a face.

Vincent Kennedy McMahon is, and always has been, a fucking moron. He was a complete fail-son to Vince J. McMahon until crawling back to daddy for an announcing gig (Young Vince filed for bankruptcy multiple times), then he "buys" the WWWF on his father's death bed, inherits the biggest market in America, thus the biggest checkbook in wrestling, and buys the biggest talent around the country like a rich kid on a shopping spree. This was "smart," but like most businessmen, the success can be chalked up more to shameless (as he shook hands with promoters and promised not to do this), and once again, simply a man with more (unearned) means using them. 

Hulk Hogan takes Vince to the promise land, and Hulk never gets enough credit for this. Hulk Hogan had transformed himself into the most famous wrestler in the country(and arguably one of the most famous in Japan as well) before Vince ever poached him from the AWA, and it was a level of fame that made the WWF, not the other way around. You see, Hulk Hogan was getting himself booked on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson when this was a really big deal. Wrestlers did not get booked on The Tonight Show. These appearances put Hulk on Sly Stallone's radar, who then obviously cast him in Rocky III as Thunderlips, the thing that would make Hogan even more gigantic. Hogan's returns to AWA after this had him, by far, an absolute crossover star phenomenon. Hulkamania was born, coined, and running wild in AWA before Hulk ever returns to young Vince's new WWF. Hulk Hogan, and Hulk Hogan alone, did this. 

Now there is nuance in things. Vince being a fucking idiot, a rich kid moron, doesn't mean he's never done anything right. Vince recognizing the AWA wasting Hogan by not fully committing to strapping the company to his back was smart, I guess. I mean, it was obvious to most people not named Vern Gagne, most likely, but Vince is the one that got Hogan and then built the WWF into a juggernaut with him, so the credit does go to him there.

But, the fact of the matter is, Vince's WWF doesn't happen without Hulk, and Hulk was already happening without Vince, and no one ever says this. Vince pulled the right strings (The USA and MTV deal), but Hulkamania built Wrestlemania. And from that Vince's "genius" is born. 

And with all that being said, Vince the Genius, with the juggernaut he built shoulder-to-shoulder with Hulk Hogan, killed the business in short order. Was this Vince's fault? Was this inevitable anyway? You could speculate either way, but the fact of the matter is WWF is peaking by Wrestlemania 3 and descends to a down period by Wrestlemania 7 that takes more than half of a decade to recover from. Four really great years with Hulk, another few with champion fat, then it's completely over. And bad. Really bad programming.

The ironic thing about WWF's success is that they usually had the worst show. You watch a random Territory wrestling program from the 80s, then take a look at what the WWF was putting on that same week, the territory was probably the better show. Vince's creative mind is not only less than a genius, but it kinda sucks. Vince is a cornball. His ideas for wrestling characters and angles are terrible. His success exists completely on business acumen, by which some percentage (only the degree is up for debate) is due to the market and checkbook he inherited.

The Attitude Era saves him, let's face it. And it shouldn't have! He clearly picks Shawn over Bret, in the most public fashion before or since (while alienating a gigantic portion of his audience), and only gets 10 more matches out of Shawn during the Monday Night Wars. This should have sunk him. But then he gets the life raft called Stone Cold Steve Austin, a comet that Vince McMahon didn't want to hire in the first place. This boom puts all of Vince's competition out of business, he's able to go public with the WWF and become a billionaire. Vince is a "genius" again. Vince did good! Two things can be true at once, he can be an idiot that did well for a couple years.

This boom lasts even shorter, though. By 2001, it's over. He got about four years from this one. Despite all the money, the lack of creativity dooms him again. The show starts to really suck, people leave in droves. And this hasn't really stopped since. There was a brief (small) bump in 2007/2008, but for the most part, the now WWE's business has been a straight line going down (Ratings, attendance, PPV buyrates before they eliminated them). I would make the argument that in the Vincent K. McMahon Era of WWF (1984-2020), he's only had 10 or 11 great years as a wrestling promoter in those 36 years. We're mainly looking at two booms in between non-stop down periods. He absolutely cashed in on the boom periods, made the WWF/E and institution, but we're still talking about 11 great years in 36, a terrible batting average for most companies, and for the industry as a whole. So, Vince built an empire at the expense of the industry, and the industry is all but dead, currently. The story of America. 

I expect people to agree with some of this, disagree with most, which is why this is my unpopular opinion. 

Jul 19, 2020 23:55:27 GMT @fisto said:

I wouldn't say Flair was a better face than heel. But I personally prefered him as a face.

Same here. Although in my case it's probably because I never wanted to boo the man. 

One more....

I thought USWA & SMW were waaaay bigger than they were in reality due to all the Apter Mag hype they received in 95-96. While we didn't get either promotion on tv here in Maryland, I just assumed their shows aired throughout The South, where they weren’t too far behind WWF and WCW, albeit on a regional level. I thought Tennessee was the wrestling capital of the world due to both promotions being based in the Volunteer State. Like wrestling was Tennessee's thing. I was also fairly certain you'd pass billboards saying "Welcome To Tennessee: The Pro Wrestling Capital of the World" when entering the Volunteer State. Every week I would futilely search the TV Guide for SMW & USWA with my logic being "surely they HAD to air in Maryland eventually." I remember how excited my cohorts and I were when we went on vacation to North Carolina in July '96 because we would FINALLY be able to watch USWA, which no doubt aired on tv in NC. Turns out USWA did not air on tv in the Outer Banks of North Carolina. 

In reality, SMW folded in late '95, not long after I started reading the Apter Mags, while USWA was lucky to draw 1,000 fans to the 10,000 seat arena they ran every Monday night, and would soon be reduced to running their "big" shows in a flea market. 

My one USWA memory, I stumbled upon it on Channel 3, which was a premium sports channel in New York, and Koko B. Ware came out and I was hyped. This had to be 1991/1992, so I was still in little kid loves all babyfaces mode, but then he disrobed, or maybe it took me a minute to notice, but he was the Champion. Like the World Champion. Even at that age, I found the notion of Koko B. Ware -- WHO I LIKED -- As completely bush league and I don't think I ever watched USWA again.

Vince Russo's wCw is significantly underrated, and wCw's impatience stopped him from truly finding his groove.

Jul 20, 2020 3:41:51 GMT Kilgore said:

My one USWA memory, I stumbled upon it on Channel 3, which was a premium sports channel in New York, and Koko B. Ware came out and I was hyped. This had to be 1991/1992, so I was still in little kid loves all babyfaces mode, but then he disrobed, or maybe it took me a minute to notice, but he was the Champion. Like the World Champion. Even at that age, I found the notion of Koko B. Ware -- WHO I LIKED -- As completely bush league and I don't think I ever watched USWA again.

lol Your "Koko B. Ware: USWA Champion" story will never get old.

I actually did watch a teeny tiny bit of the Texas branch of the USWA when it was syndicated nationwide for a little while in the early 90s. My lasting memory of this fed, which I also thought was bush league even as a kid, is seeing One Man Gang win a battle royal. As the years rolled on, I became half convinced I had imagined the whole thing...

Until I was working on a project a few years back for this thread pwcom.proboards.com/thread/237/earliest-wrestling-memories-promotion and discovered it did exist! 

Jul 20, 2020 1:25:01 GMT Baker said:

One more....

I thought USWA & SMW were waaaay bigger than they were in reality due to all the Apter Mag hype they received in 95-96. While we didn't get either promotion on tv here in Maryland, I just assumed their shows aired throughout The South, where they enjoyed WWF-level popularity, albeit on a regional scale. I thought Tennessee was the wrestling capital of the world due to both promotions being based in the Volunteer State. Like wrestling was Tennessee's thing. I was also fairly certain you'd pass billboards saying "Welcome To Tennessee: The Pro Wrestling Capital of the World" when entering the Volunteer State. Every week I would futilely search the TV Guide for SMW & USWA with my logic being "surely they HAD to air in Maryland eventually." I remember how excited my cohorts and I were when we went on vacation to North Carolina in July '96 because we would FINALLY be able to watch USWA, which no doubt aired on tv in NC. Turns out USWA did not air on tv in the Outer Banks of North Carolina. 

In reality, SMW folded in late '95, not long after I started reading the Apter Mags, while USWA was lucky to draw 1,000 fans to the 10,000 seat arena they ran every Monday night, and would soon be reduced to running their "big" shows in a flea market. 

My only reason to think USWA was a big deal was through a couple of friends who were reading Apter mags before me. I first thought Jerry Lawler was goofy comedy filler then they informed me he's a 25 TIME WORLD CHAMPION and a legend who beat Hogan, Flair, Savage etc. Once I got the magazines a few years later it didn't take long to figure out the USWA was pretty much the WWF farm system who used WWF guys to boost business when needed.

Jul 19, 2020 19:49:59 GMT thereallt said:

For my unpopular take, Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles would have been curtain jerkers during the WWE's prime years.

They weren't even at that level. Danielson was under contract briefly during the late attitude era, and Styles got an offer during the Invasion period.

Jul 20, 2020 9:02:08 GMT NATH45 said:

Jul 19, 2020 19:49:59 GMT thereallt said:

For my unpopular take, Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles would have been curtain jerkers during the WWE's prime years.

They weren't even at that level. Danielson was under contract briefly during the late attitude era, and Styles got an offer during the Invasion period.

Both were pretty young - Bryan was still a teenager and AJ was 23. If they were older, they would have gone through WCW, got over and WWF would have booked them better than they've booked them now.

AJ Styles was marketable, I wouldn't have been surprised to see him have some level of success in the Attitude era. Daniel Bryan was just far too small, Vince would never have employed him. Styles I could have seen in a tag team with another guy of a similar profile.

Jul 20, 2020 10:03:31 GMT Big Pete said:

Jul 20, 2020 9:02:08 GMT NATH45 said:

They weren't even at that level. Danielson was under contract briefly during the late attitude era, and Styles got an offer during the Invasion period.

Both were pretty young - Bryan was still a teenager and AJ was 23. If they were older, they would have gone through WCW, got over and WWF would have booked them better than they've booked them now.

Multi time world champions? Grand slam champions, Wrestlemania main events. I'd say two guys who " don't fit the mold " have been booked well.

In fact, this era favours their skillsets more than the attitude era.

You're also putting faith in WCW developing these two to a point, they break from that cruiserweight glass ceiling, similarly to Jericho. And neither man here is Chris Jericho with a mic.

Best time travel scenario is, Styles era Bullet Club travels back and invades Ecw.

AJ was in WCW... granted it was already dead in the ground but still counts!

Jul 18, 2020 4:10:41 GMT Baker said:

Hogan vs. Warrior: Wrestlemania VI

My Real Time Take: Probably the biggest match ever. At least twice as big as Hogan/Savage, and on par with Hogan/Andre due to off the charts playground hype.

In Reality: A very big, very famous match for sure. But it actually drew far less buys than Hogan/Savage, and falls well short of Hogan/Andre in importance/WWF lore.

Growing up, I too assumed this was the #2 match ever. I did not have have The Big Event on tape, nor did any of my friends. Mania VI was the only other stadium show any of us saw except for Hogan/Andre. And it was face vs. face. And Hogan lost!

Hogan/Savage in front of that shitty crowd in Atlantic City never seemed close to as important. Because I had none of the knowledge or context as a wee kid watching tapes. Hell, Hogan/Quake at SummerSlam came close to Hogan/Warrior in terms of PPV buys.

My take is young short haired AJ Styles could have had a spot in the Hardyz/Dudleyz/E&C tag division with someone that had similar movez (Maybe an OMEGA alumni, or Kid Kash, someone like that) with AJ having potential to emerge as the singles guy who's been slumming it with an Anvil.

Current long haired AJ could have a similar path, but it seems less likely, somehow.

Daniel Bryan obviously has a harder path, but I wouldn't rule him out completely. He gets sports entertainment, he very well could have a horrible Attitude Era gimmick that he made work. When you think about Brian Christopher/Scotty Too Hotty, there was room for Daniel Bryan as (at least) a tag guy, some sort of racist Japanese odd couple tag where he's called Daneil-San to Taka (or Tajiri towards the end of the boom), or some dumb shit. Even Spike (apparently) had a much better run than I would have ever imagined in that post-Attitude Era, but still kinda Attitude Era after WM17. Daniel Bryan could have done something similar, hell, he could've even been another Dudley!

Neither AJ or Bryan will approach the main event, though, obviously. Midcard for life, great tag wrestlers with IC ceiling.

Kilgore beat me to the punch on Bryan & AJ in the Attitude Era while I was sleeping or at work. His thoughts more or less align with my own.

-Daniel Bryan ends up in a lower card comedy role a la Crash Holly. Or Jamie Noble if he comes in a little later.
-While I had Styles down for a Shane Helms style WWE career with the chance of something more if he ends up with the right partner.

It was actually Strobe who finally set me straight a few years back on Hogan/Warrior not being as big as I had always imagined. Until then I just assumed it was one of the highest drawing matches in WWF history.

A few more.....

I was hugely into dying day AWA, thought the infamous Team Challenge Series was a brilliant concept, and always wanted WWF or WCW to recycle the concept.

Bryan & AJ would never be bonafide mainstream wrestling superstars. But these guys would!....

Ahmed Johnson- The next Warrior. Or Goldberg 1.0 if you prefer. A future WWF Champion either way you look at it.
Ice Train- Destined to become a main event babyface in 1994 WCW
Minotaur- WCW's answer to The Undertaker. Their next big main event monster heel circa 1991.
Scott Norton- Big, mean, nasty, badass main event heel in the style of Vader circa 1993 WCW.
D’Lo Brown was going to follow in The Rock’s footsteps as another big breakout star from The Nation.

Jul 20, 2020 21:56:42 GMT NATH45 said:

Jul 20, 2020 10:03:31 GMT Big Pete said:

Both were pretty young - Bryan was still a teenager and AJ was 23. If they were older, they would have gone through WCW, got over and WWF would have booked them better than they've booked them now.

Multi time world champions? Grand slam champions, Wrestlemania main events. I'd say two guys who " don't fit the mold " have been booked well.

In fact, this era favours their skillsets more than the attitude era.

You're also putting faith in WCW developing these two to a point, they break from that cruiserweight glass ceiling, similarly to Jericho. And neither man here is Chris Jericho with a mic.

Best time travel scenario is, Styles era Bullet Club travels back and invades Ecw.

The entire time there has been an attempt to sabotage, however both are so talented the fans wouldn't allow it. Back then, there was always an intention to get talent like them over as best as they could. They wouldn't have been multi-time champions off the bat, but would have forced themselves into the tag and intercontinental championship divisions respectively. Then heading into the next era, they would have received their thank you runs at some point.

WCW was important for Jericho's development as a star and is what made Russo fan. Both Bryan and Styles would have been noticed and won people over just like they did during their recent tenure. As an aside, Jericho was breaking out of the division but he threw a fit when nobody cleared his PPV angle with Goldberg.

Does this count as an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect?

Warlord should've been pushed HARD as a main event singles act post-PoP split. Warlord should've been the primary heel foil to Ultimate Warrior during Warrior's run as world champ.

Warlord was SOOOOO bad though. I mean I'm all for big brooding powerhouses but those Warrior/Warlord matches at the top of the card would have been fucking brutal.

Jul 21, 2020 18:50:31 GMT UT said:

Warlord was SOOOOO bad though. I mean I'm all for big brooding powerhouses but those Warrior/Warlord matches at the top of the card would have been fucking brutal.

Was he though? And would those terrible matches have been more Warlord's fault, or Warrior's? Or equal blame to both?

So much for elaborating to share my idea of a stable to build around Warlord. Would've been Warlord's War Horde, and would've consisted of: Warlord's ol' partner Barb being his #2 and general stand-in when dodging challenges, Berzerker as the out-of-control enforcer, and Power & Glory serving as the tag component.

Jul 21, 2020 19:02:59 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 21, 2020 18:50:31 GMT UT said:

Warlord was SOOOOO bad though. I mean I'm all for big brooding powerhouses but those Warrior/Warlord matches at the top of the card would have been fucking brutal.

Was he though? And would those terrible matches have been more Warlord's fault, or Warrior's? Or equal blame to both?

So much for elaborating to share my idea of a stable to build around Warlord. Would've been Warlord's War Horde, and would've consisted of: Warlord's ol' partner Barb being his #2 and general stand-in when dodging challenges, Berzerker as the out-of-control enforcer, and Power & Glory serving as the tag component.

Yes he was and they both would have shared the blame. I probably would have been stoked seeing it for the first time but man...

Now I feel like I want to go down a Warlord rabbit hole to find matches to prove my take isn't so bad and that it could've maybe had a 1 in 10 chance of working out OK.

I'm also starting to think, based on Dr. Emperor's reaction in another thread, that my opinion of Okada might be unpopular and/or at least a bad take based on my sample size of one match and that match being his abysmal outing against Marty Scurll a few years back at All In or whatever that pre-AEW show was called.

You haven't really states your opinion explicitly, just guessing from context that it's some degree of negative. What is your opinion of Okada?

Jul 21, 2020 19:02:59 GMT 🤯 said:

Would've been Warlord's War Horde, and would've consisted of: Warlord's ol' partner Barb being his #2 and general stand-in when dodging challenges, Berzerker as the out-of-control enforcer, and Power & Glory serving as the tag component.

Paul Roma would need to get a singular name. We can't have Warlord, Barbarian, Berzerker, Hercules and... Paul Roma.

He was seen as a pretty boy. Could we have had Narcissus a few years before Luger had that name before it pivoted to The Narcissist?