*This started out as a simple "Mr. Wonderful: 1996 WCW Main Eventer" rebooking thread before taking on a life of its own as my storytimes got out of control. So I decided to just create a separate thread for Unpopular Opinions/Bad Takes/Disconnect. 

Before I get to Mr. Wonderful, I just want to further elaborate upon something I touched on in the Luger thread. I had very little contact with the wider wrestling community prior to getting hooked on the Apter Mags in 1996. Until then, it was basically just me with my always idiosyncratic tastes, a handful of various friends/acquaintances over the years, and Vince's propaganda. That's it. Living in this bubble apparently lead to a lot of "oddball" takes. Let's take a look at a few of these before I get to Mr. Wonderful. Along the way, I will explain WHY I thought the way I did for so many years. Most of the stuff I'm going to write about was HUGE to me and/or my peers. So imagine my shock years later when I get online and discover so much of this stuff I deemed "great" or "classic" was considered "Wrestlecrap." Mind blown!

Hogan vs. Warrior: Wrestlemania VI

My Real Time Take: Maybe the biggest match ever. At least twice as big as Hogan/Savage, and on par with Hogan/Andre due to off the charts playground hype.

In Reality: A very big, very famous match for sure. But it actually drew far less buys than Hogan/Savage, and falls well short of Hogan/Andre in importance/WWF lore.

The Black Scorpion

My Real Time Take: The biggest thing NWA ever did simply because it was the first (and only?) time I ever heard other kids discussing NWA on the playground.

In Reality: Considered Wrestlecrap by most. Lousy payoff, to be sure. BUT it actually drew well, much to the surprise of booker Ole Anderson, who came up with the Black Scorpion idea as a throwaway joke in a booking meeting. Just goes to show how out of touch Ole "Armbars & Headlocks" Anderson was. But it also proves he was at least aware of the concept of jokes, which is not something I would have expected. 

Papa Shango

My Real Time Take: Huge success because "What will Papa Shango do next?" was THE big draw for me when it came to WWF programming in the spring of '92.

In Reality: Definitely memorable. But most consider him Wrestlecrap. Was apparently the last straw for a lot of old school fans, including Tod Gordon, who claimed to have come up with the idea of starting his own promotion, which would become ECW, after seeing Shango as a Jump The Shark moment.

The Lex Express was massive with my peers and I for reasons I already discussed in the recent Luger thread.

91-94 Bret Hart

Real Time Take: Nothing special because he wasn't over with my friends or I. Hear me out....
His major rivals (Lawler, Owen, Backlund) were over. Bret was not. Or if he was, it was only as a foil to those more interesting opponents. I personally loved those opponents. My friends (mostly) disliked them. If they went to a show, they would have booed them rather than cheering for Bret. That's a big difference imo. My 93-94 associates were far more into Luger & Taker. It wasn't until my cousin came out of the closet as a wrestling fan in early '95 that I knew any true Bret Hart fans in real life.

In Reality: I guess he was over. That's what I'm told anyway. Unless! The entire internet has been lying to me for over two decades as part of a long con? Yes. That's it. That is what I believe. #ConspiracyTheorist

Abe “Knuckleball” Schwartz

Real Time Take: Extremely intriguing character who had my friends and I all abuzz.

In Reality: Who?

Undertaker vs. Underfaker

Real Time Take: Huge. I'm talking Lex Express hype, if not even greater. I was into it. My normal wrestling fan friends were into it. Even my cool older friend's cool older friends were hugely into this storyline. These were the "cool kids!" A bunch of Zack Morrises and AC Slaters who I never even would have suspected were wrestling fans. Undertaker was a genuine phenomenon in the summer-fall of 1994 just as Luger had been the previous year. Taker/Faker was what everybody (including the cool kids!) were talking about at soccer practice.

In Reality: Widely considered Wrestlecrap. One of the biggest disconnects of them all. Mind blown when I found out this storyline supposedly bombed in real life. "Supposedly" because #ConspiracyTheorist

Mr. Bob Backlund

Real Time Take: Huge. Mr. Backlund was nearly as over as 93 Lex or 94 Taker in his own way. The Crossface Chickenwing was another huge thing at my school. In fact, one of the most memorable moments of my entire school career was the principal announcing something like "Anyone caught doing the Crossface Chickenwing will immediately be suspended." This happened! See, my school had been ravaged by an epidemic. Those aforementioned Zacks and Slaters were forever Chickenwinging the younger kids *raises hand* and "nerds"  *raises hand again*. Of course it trickled on down the hierarchy as these things often do. Before long it was out of control. Anyway, you better believe I marked out for the principal's announcement. My friend Matt The IRS Fan and I couldn't stop giggling the entire day.

In Reality: It seems like most people kinda sorta liked the Mr. Backlund character.  But few seemed to have viewed him as this "OMG awesome!" all time great thing the way me and my Chickenwinging chums did.

2nd half of 1995 WWF

Real Time Take: The most popular period since (at least) Hogan's heyday back in the 80s simply because I knew more real life wrestling fans than ever before. Between 7 and 9, baby! Huge numbers! Even WCW benefited by proxy.

In Reality: Widely considered the nadir of WWF. Discovering this was an Undertaker/Underfaker-level disconnect.

Dean Douglas and Jean Pierre Lafitte

Real Time Take: Great characters! And hugely over simply because my real life wrestling fan clique was invested in them and their feuds with Bret & Razor. How can anybody NOT be into the Evil Teacher and the Evil Pirate??

In Reality: Widely considered more Wrestlecrap. At best, you'll have people praise the Bret/JPL IYH match while taking a dump on the "stolen jacket" storyline. The poor Dean gets no love at all. 

*At last the stage is set. Mr. Wonderful tomorrow. 

Mordecai had potential.

Hogan sucked as a heel.

I know people like to claim he is one of , if not ALSO the best heel of all times because of the 'numbers' and I always kind of just accepted it as fact when reading it because I was far from a WCW expert and remember him being an asshole.

Yet upon my rewatches of old WCW , he was so fucking bad and corny as a heel that I found it almost unwatchable at times. He didn't come off as cool , he came off as fake and never natural. Nash , Hall , Pac and probably even Bischoff deserve far more credit for making the nWo as cool as it was. Cool to be bad. Hogan was an midlife crisis walking around on TV every week.

Jul 18, 2020 13:48:01 GMT UT said:

Hogan sucked as a heel.

I know people like to claim he is one of , if not ALSO the best heel of all times because of the 'numbers' and I always kind of just accepted it as fact when reading it because I was far from a WCW expert and remember him being an asshole.

Yet upon my rewatches of old WCW , he was so fucking bad and corny as a heel that I found it almost unwatchable at times. He didn't come off as cool , he came off as fake and never natural. Nash , Hall , Pac and probably even Bischoff deserve far more credit for making the nWo as cool as it was. Cool to be bad. Hogan was an midlife crisis walking around on TV every week.

UT calling like it was.

UT, 🤯, It's not really about Hogan being good or bad as a heel that makes him an awesome heel when he put on the black and white though. It's the fact that it was Hulk fucking Hogan. Every little kids idol. The man who lifted Andre the Giant. The man who fought the good fight for years and years. He was the Superman of the WWF. Then him turning heel the way that he did, changing colors of his gear and being the unstoppable douchebag was just so surreal. There were people who threw fucking trash at this dude when he went heel. He broke hearts of the 'it's still real to me damn it!' crowd. What he did as a heel was awesome because nobody could beat him. They could barely get to him because he was so protected by the NWO and the boss himself Eric Bischoff. The NWO is legendary and Hogan IS the reason why.

Could you imagine John Cena having a revival of his career by starting something as cool as the NWO or the Bullet Club? That would be HUGE right now because John Cena is to this generation what Hulk Hogan was to that generation.

Prove me wrong.

All that is narrative and I didn’t say the numbers weren’t successful , his execution fucking sucked and was straight cheese. None of what you said proved him effective as a heel - more so his popularity as a face.

So yeah I stand by what I said. He was fucking awful as a heel , just because he was booked a certain way doesn’t mean he wasn’t incredibly cringe worthy.

Wrong.

Hey, I didn't say Hulk was bad or good as a heel. I just agreed that he was a walking midlife crisis. Prove me wrong that he wasn't.

I don't know about people claiming Hogan as the best heel ever. I think it's more people stating his turn started another boom in the wrestling business which is a huge feather in his cap.

In any event the promo he cut at Bash AT The Beach set the tone, it was so good. After this he had free range, as lame as his stuff may have looked he still got the desired reaction. He did transform into a great chicken shit heel though, but I can see where UT is coming from with some of the promos and skits. His role in those initial paid messages he fit right in with Hall and Nash.

Jul 18, 2020 19:48:45 GMT KING KID said:

Wrong.

You're Juror Three from 12 Angry Men.

Jul 18, 2020 19:48:45 GMT KING KID said:

Wrong.

Okay good talk.

Jul 18, 2020 20:58:18 GMT Emperor said:

Jul 18, 2020 19:48:45 GMT KING KID said:

Wrong.

You're Juror Three from 12 Angry Men.

KING KID is sooo Juror No. 3 -- don't know how I didn't put this together before.

Dr. Emperor is on fire lately.

I'd love to sit here and go back and forth about Hogan's excellence, but I am currently busy writing

THE KWF DOPE SHOW 

LIVE AT FAN FICTION!

BROTHERS.

I have to back Kid on this one. Hogan was the only heel in the NWO that was drawing legit heat. People were flat out cheering Hall and Nash and people found their promos funny while people were throwing trash in the ring during Hogan's promos,

The job of a heel is to make the audience hate them and Hogan did that better than anyone else in WCW at that time.

Jul 18, 2020 22:46:41 GMT thereallt said:

I have to back Kid on this one. Hogan was the only heel in the NWO that was drawing legit heat. People were flat out cheering Hall and Nash and people found their promos funny while people were throwing trash in the ring during Hogan's promos,

The job of a heel is to make the audience hate them and Hogan did that better than anyone else in WCW at that time.

Simply by turning and booking , I’ll admit Shootist is right about him at first but he quickly turned to a parody and cut some of the lamest promos I’ve ever seen. It wasn’t because he was out there doing great work.

BAD HEEL MY ASS.

On the topic: If I'm going to watch Hogan, I'd prefer it to be the nWo Hollywood era. 

No one should say the guy was the greatest heel ever; that's an insult to the actual greatest heels ever (Jericho, Roberts, Raven, Piper, etc.). But I'd much rather be driven to dislike him than cheer for a man who looks like a rolled-up hot dog with a mustache. All that being said: UT and 🤯 are way on point here. Nash and Hall were the only ones who brought charisma to that faction. Hogan's nWo promos are very cringe, like he's trying way too hard, which is terrible considering that's definitely Hogan's strong suit.

I'd still book it the same from '96 up to the Starrcade '97 main event (obviously would change the stupid finish) though, nWo was on fire during that time and it was WCW's creative peak for sure. Wolfpac was a natural evolution, but nWo should have died after a initial feud. Late '98 or early '99 should have been the end, if not sooner.

Hogan during his heel run basically comes off like this for me:



My own take: Some may or may not agree with this, but Test was main event material if he had been booked right and thrown into a program with Trips like it had been planned. Going back and watching his matches recently, I've realized he was basically Kevin Nash with a lot more athleticism. Not the most charismatic on the mic, but that hasn't stopped others before. With a great manager, the guy could have at least been a transitional champion. Definitely deserved better.

Also, Jeff Jarrett is underrated. The guy isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be, including the opinion of my past self. 

A lot more takes to be had but these were the first two that came to mind.

I'm not sure how unpopular this is, especially given AEW's rise to prominence but I absolutely ADORE everything that makes guys like Cornette and Al Snow lose their shit. Chikara madness, ORANGE CASSIDY, exposing the business and what have you. Little girls wrestling Kenny Omegas... arm wrestling matches in the middle of the ring... stopping time and slowing it down... love everything about that shit.

Jul 19, 2020 2:26:21 GMT rad said:

Also, Jeff Jarrett is underrated. The guy isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be, including the opinion of my past self. 

rad just earned himself a like.

With regards to Jarrett I always think the bulk of the hate comes from his forced main event runs (WCW and his whole TNA vanity shit) whereas if he was merely an upper midcarder who occasionally acted as an IYH-level main event challenger to the world title, most people would agree that, ain't he great?

Jul 19, 2020 2:37:29 GMT @ness said:

I'm not sure how unpopular this is, especially given AEW's rise to prominence but I absolutely ADORE everything that makes guys like Cornette and Al Snow lose their shit. Chikara madness, ORANGE CASSIDY, exposing the business and what have you. Little girls wrestling Kenny Omegas... arm wrestling matches in the middle of the ring... stopping time and slowing it down... love everything about that shit.

THIS.

Wrestling is supposed to be fun and comedy should always have a place in it. My favorite spot from my first live show was The Rascalz slowing down time after hitting their opponent with a vape; it brought down the house w/laughter and applause.

It's instrumental for non-fans too; I've changed some opinions on wrestling through comedy spots w/some of my friends.

I used to love Corney but he is the gate-ist keeper of gatekeepers. He has valid points in some areas though; I do wish match psychology was more prevalent in modern times.

But there should be a promotion out there for everyone's tastes, not 1000 carbon-copies of territory-style wrestling. If you're into strictly deathmatches, fuck yeah -- everyone likes something different.

Jul 19, 2020 2:37:29 GMT @ness said:

I'm not sure how unpopular this is, especially given AEW's rise to prominence but I absolutely ADORE everything that makes guys like Cornette and Al Snow lose their shit. Chikara madness, ORANGE CASSIDY, exposing the business and what have you. Little girls wrestling Kenny Omegas... arm wrestling matches in the middle of the ring... stopping time and slowing it down... love everything about that shit.

Wrestling comedy is a mixed bag. Some of it I like. Some of it I hate. And there's really no predicting what I'm going to love and what I'm going to hate. Comedy is subjective and I'm unpredictable. (I probably would hate all the stuff you mentioned though  :lol:  )

But I still think it's funny that Al Snow, of all people, is against comedy in wrestling, given the fact that the best run of his career, and the only thing most people remember him for, is (bad) comedy. 

Jul 19, 2020 3:53:14 GMT Baker said:

Jul 19, 2020 2:37:29 GMT @ness said:

I'm not sure how unpopular this is, especially given AEW's rise to prominence but I absolutely ADORE everything that makes guys like Cornette and Al Snow lose their shit. Chikara madness, ORANGE CASSIDY, exposing the business and what have you. Little girls wrestling Kenny Omegas... arm wrestling matches in the middle of the ring... stopping time and slowing it down... love everything about that shit.

Wrestling comedy is a mixed bag. Some of it I like. Some of it I hate. And there's really no predicting what I'm going to love and what I'm going to hate. Comedy is subjective and I'm unpredictable. (I probably would hate all the stuff you mentioned though  :lol:  )

But I still think it's funny that Al Snow, of all people, is against comedy in wrestling, given the fact that the best run of his career, and the only thing most people remember him for, is (bad) comedy. 

Based on Foley's book, sounds about right as Al sounds like the poster child of self-loathing.

Jul 19, 2020 3:53:14 GMT Baker said:

Jul 19, 2020 2:37:29 GMT @ness said:

I'm not sure how unpopular this is, especially given AEW's rise to prominence but I absolutely ADORE everything that makes guys like Cornette and Al Snow lose their shit. Chikara madness, ORANGE CASSIDY, exposing the business and what have you. Little girls wrestling Kenny Omegas... arm wrestling matches in the middle of the ring... stopping time and slowing it down... love everything about that shit.

Wrestling comedy is a mixed bag. Some of it I like. Some of it I hate. And there's really no predicting what I'm going to love and what I'm going to hate. Comedy is subjective and I'm unpredictable. (I probably would hate all the stuff you mentioned though   )

But I still think it's funny that Al Snow, of all people, is against comedy in wrestling, given the fact that the best run of his career, and the only thing most people remember him for, is (bad) comedy. 

New bad take: HeadCheese is one of the greatest tag teams ever... I would have been cool with a 6-month dominant title reign of more comedic gold; the BookDust of their time. CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME CHANGE MY MIND!?!?

I did not watch the nWo run in real time, but from what I've seen, I think people here have countered UT's point in the way I would. In fact, UT himself basically says it all.

Hogan being so cheesy/corny is what made it - it was great heel work. Maybe he did not intend for it to come across that way, but the end result is what matters. The rest of the nWo had a cool factor and Hogan came across as the old lame guy trying to hang with the kids. Nash and Hall were the cool heels who would be cheered by themselves, but booed when coming out with Hogan as they were subservient and laughing it up with this lame-o. Hogan got even more heel heat because, when out next to The Outsiders, he made the fans dislike guys they wanted to cheer. It was transparent that they were using the power and influence of this megastar and he was trying to be hip. Hogan hadn't just gone bad, he was an old man trying to act cool and like he had an edge. Hence, trash-throwing.

Whether you like watching that is another thing, but I find it hard to call it bad heel work.

Jul 19, 2020 11:25:12 GMT Strobe said:

I did not watch the nWo run in real time, but from what I've seen, I think people here have countered UT's point in the way I would. In fact, UT himself basically says it all.

Hogan being so cheesy/corny is what made it - it was great heel work. Maybe he did not intend for it to come across that way, but the end result is what matters. The rest of the nWo had a cool factor and Hogan came across as the old lame guy trying to hang with the kids. Nash and Hall were the cool heels who would be cheered by themselves, but booed when coming out with Hogan as they were subservient and laughing it up with this lame-o. Hogan got even more heel heat because, when out next to The Outsiders, he made the fans dislike guys they wanted to cheer. It was transparent that they were using the power and influence of this megastar and he was trying to be hip. Hogan hadn't just gone bad, he was an old man trying to act cool and like he had an edge. Hence, trash-throwing.

Whether you like watching that is another thing, but I find it hard to call it bad heel work.

Sounds exactly like a walking midlife crisis to me.

Who knew a walking midlife crisis could/would be such a hot heel act!?

I stand by what I said , and reject the idea that intent of Hogan was to come off as the cheesy old guy hanging around the young bucks. That was never the intention and Hogan for AGES has gotten the credit for making the nWo cool. He didn't. He was terrible all around and simply coasting off his name and the shock value of him being a heel. That's it.

Give me HHH's reign of terror any day of the week as far superior , actual heel work.

UT's heel work in this thread surpasses Hogan's WCW heel work IMO.

And I don't even think UT is old enough yet to have a midlife crisis.

Jul 19, 2020 14:32:31 GMT UT said:

I stand by what I said , and reject the idea that intent of Hogan was to come off as the cheesy old guy hanging around the young bucks. That was never the intention and Hogan for AGES has gotten the credit for making the nWo cool. He didn't. He was terrible all around and simply coasting off his name and the shock value of him being a heel. That's it.

Give me HHH's reign of terror any day of the week as far superior , actual heel work.

If you're talking about his reign during Evolution, not even close.   He came out every week and did the same lame, boring 30 minute promo at the opening of every RAW while cos-playing as a prime Ric Flair.  People got sick of HHH real quick..    At least Hogan with the NWO was something fresh at the time.

Jul 19, 2020 19:15:34 GMT thereallt said:

Jul 19, 2020 14:32:31 GMT UT said:

I stand by what I said , and reject the idea that intent of Hogan was to come off as the cheesy old guy hanging around the young bucks. That was never the intention and Hogan for AGES has gotten the credit for making the nWo cool. He didn't. He was terrible all around and simply coasting off his name and the shock value of him being a heel. That's it.

Give me HHH's reign of terror any day of the week as far superior , actual heel work.

If you're talking about his reign during Evolution, not even close.   He came out every week and did the same lame, boring 30 minute promo at the opening of every RAW while cos-playing as a prime Ric Flair.  People got sick of HHH real quick..    At least Hogan with the NWO was something fresh at the time.

Fresh? There was nothing fresh about that - Id rather watch someone cosplay Ric Flair than cosplay a grandfather who went back to high school and tried to fit in.