Jul 21, 2020 20:19:03 GMT Strobe said:

Jul 21, 2020 19:02:59 GMT 🤯 said:

Would've been Warlord's War Horde, and would've consisted of: Warlord's ol' partner Barb being his #2 and general stand-in when dodging challenges, Berzerker as the out-of-control enforcer, and Power & Glory serving as the tag component.

Paul Roma would need to get a singular name. We can't have Warlord, Barbarian, Berzerker, Hercules and... Paul Roma.

He was seen as a pretty boy. Could we have had Narcissus a few years before Luger had that name before it pivoted to The Narcissist?

Fucking love this idea! OR... I could settle for Paul Roma being shortened to Roma then expanded to Roman then extapolated to Gladiator.

Or just leaving him as Paul Roma to stand out as a hilarious pretty boy sore thumb with a normal name.

I prefer HIAC (and even Ground Zero) to both Taker/HBK WM matches.

Also I hate Red Shoes.

I prefer HIAC (and even Ground Zero) to both Taker/HBK WM matches.

This is the right take.

Even the blow-off Casket match is great, easily the best Casket match in WWF history.

Speaking of HIACs... Would it be an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect to say both Brock/Taker HIAC matches were better than either Foley HIAC match?

Since we're talking 'Taker, might as well drop a hot take on 'Taker, and it's that he's been bad significantly (exponentially?) longer than he's been good. He has one of the lowest batting averages of good matches for someone with his reputation, some people even writing off YEARS of work. There's only a handful of 'Taker matches I'd consider rewatching before 1997 (you know, year fucking 7 of his goddamned WWF career), then by 1999 he kinda sucked again. Then there was American Badass years, again, kind of sucked in the ring. Minus the flashes 1996/1997/1998, 'Taker didn't really seem to come into his own until the big Wrestlemania streak matches, and even those apparently don't hold up the best because they so heavily relied on the history of the streak, whereas simply doing a bunch of nearfalls would have the live crowd thinking the streak could be over, giving it a superficial drama that doesn't hold up nearly as well on rewatch. There's only so many times you can see a nearfall then the heavy-handed WWE production zoom into a closeup of the shocked face of the wrestler. "He can't believe there was another nearfall! He has never seen a WWE match this decade!"

I don't know, I'm not shitting on 'Taker, even though it sounds like I am. He was never my guy (I find the gimmick embarrassingly hokey, Wrestelcrap that people just accepted for whatever reason), but I do genuinely think he's overrated as a worker.

Jul 21, 2020 22:55:08 GMT Kilgore said:

Since we're talking 'Taker, might as well drop a hot take on 'Taker, and it's that he's been bad significantly (exponentially?) longer than he's been good. He has one of the lowest batting averages of good matches for someone with his reputation, some people even writing off YEARS of work. There's only a handful of 'Taker matches I'd consider rewatching before 1997, then by 1999 he kinda sucked again. Then there was American Badass years, again, kind of sucked in the ring. Minus the flashes 1996/1997/1998, 'Taker didn't really seem to come into his own until the big Wrestlemania streak matches, and even those apparently don't hold up the best because they so heavily relied on the history of the streak, whereas simply doing a bunch of nearfalls would have the live crowd thinking the streak could be over, giving it a superficial drama that doesn't hold up nearly as well on rewatch. There's only so many times you can see a nearfall then the heavy-handed WWE production zoom into a closeup of the shocked face of the wrestler. "He can't believe there was another nearfall! He has never seen a WWE match this decade!"

I don't know, I'm not shitting on 'Taker, even though it sounds like I am. He was never my guy (I find the gimmick embarrassingly hokey, Wrestelcrap that people just accepted for whatever reason), but I do genuinely think he's overrated as a worker.

I like the topic within a topic here of what popular or accepted gimmicks or angles would/should otherwise be considered WrestleCrap if not for their popularity/acceptance?

If Taker counts, I feel like at least 50%+ of WWF counts. Doink, IRS, Kane, etc. Who ran over Stone Cold? HHH's sledgehammer, etc. Why am I blanking on more slash more obvious ones?

Jul 21, 2020 22:49:27 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of HIACs... Would it be an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect to say both Brock/Taker HIAC matches were better than either Foley HIAC match?

The first one, nah that was amazing and while it didn't have a "big bump" Brock still gave us fan service by climbing up top.

Don't think I ever saw the second one, but appreciate the thought behind removing the padding inside the ring to expose the WOOD.

That said I do think the second one with HHH is slightly underrated as a whole.

Jul 21, 2020 23:02:54 GMT @ness said:

Jul 21, 2020 22:49:27 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of HIACs... Would it be an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect to say both Brock/Taker HIAC matches were better than either Foley HIAC match?

The first one, nah that was amazing and while it didn't have a "big bump" Brock still gave us fan service by climbing up top.

Don't think I ever saw the second one, but appreciate the thought behind removing the padding inside the ring to expose the WOOD.

That said I do think the second one with HHH is slightly underrated as a whole.

Maybe it is, and maybe End of an Era is overrated... But as someone who generally hates HHH/HBK/Taker circle jerks, I loved EoaE and would say it's better than either Foley HIAC match as well.

Jul 21, 2020 23:07:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 21, 2020 23:02:54 GMT @ness said:

The first one, nah that was amazing and while it didn't have a "big bump" Brock still gave us fan service by climbing up top.

Don't think I ever saw the second one, but appreciate the thought behind removing the padding inside the ring to expose the WOOD.

That said I do think the second one with HHH is slightly underrated as a whole.

Maybe it is, and maybe End of an Era is overrated... But as someone who generally hates HHH/HBK/Taker circle jerks, I loved EoaE and would say it's better than either Foley HIAC match as well.

Thinking you just hate fat guys in little coats.

Jul 21, 2020 23:00:40 GMT 🤯 said:

If Taker counts, I feel like at least 50%+ of WWF counts. Doink, IRS, Kane, etc. Who ran over Stone Cold? HHH's sledgehammer, etc. Why am I blanking on more slash more obvious ones?

'Taker has to count and here's why; If The Giant falling off a building to his death at Halloween Havoc '95 only to show up a little while later to wrestle is Wrestlecrap, and it is, Royal Rumble '94 and Buried Alive are without question Wrestlecrap, and the gimmick as a whole is Wrestlecrap adjacent since this is how it would be justified. "Well, he is an undead zombie type character from the old west(?), so he can't really die." This is dumber than the already dumb wrestling, classic Wrestlecrap.

Partial agreement with Kilgore on Undertaker. I used to believe the hype that he was this god tier worker, but now I'm not at all convinced. He's capable of greatness, and has been great in many decades, which is very impressive, but he has never had any kind of consistency.

The streak matches can hardly be held against him. The matches were obviously worked deliberately as epics, and that was absolutely the right way to work those matches. The streak had taken a life of its own, and beating The Undertaker at Wrestlemania was the biggest kayfabe achievement by a massive distance. Undertaker and his opponents were correct to take their matches to excess. Several of them are considered among the greatest matches of all time, even if they don't necessarily hold up. Most of wrestling's great matches don't hold up, anyway, so that's hardly a valid criticism. Hogan/Andre anyone?

As to his gimmick, is it really Wrestlecrap? I suppose it is, especially the formative years where he was literally a slow, shambling, indestructible zombie. It's a testament to Undertaker's quality as a performer that he took a Wrestlecrap gimmick and made it one of the greatest and most enduring gimmicks/characters ever seen in the industry. I'm still inclined to believe he's one of the GOAT wrestlers, even if most of that greatness comes from his work outside the ring.

Building on @ness's comment, my unpopular take: I think Triple H is extremely underrated, and the horrible reputation he gets because he's married to Stephanie McMahon and buried everybody (allegedly), is absurd. He's not flashy as a character or in the ring, which is going to negativel impact on people's perceptions, but he excelled as the top heel, in his prime there were really no flaws in his game.

Another unpopular take since a lot of people vehemently disagree: Brock Lesnar is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, he's not lazy, he has always cared about his work, and he's a top 5 seller. Quite frankly, the fact that he has convinced so many people he doesn't give a shit demonstrates his top tier character work.

Jul 21, 2020 23:17:28 GMT Emperor said:

Another unpopular take since a lot of people vehemently disagree: Brock Lesnar is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, he's not lazy, he has always cared about his work, and he's a top 5 seller. Quite frankly, the fact that he has convinced so many people he doesn't give a shit demonstrates his top tier character work.

Marry me. I'll start filing for divorce from Wife now.

Jul 22, 2020 0:44:30 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 21, 2020 23:17:28 GMT Emperor said:

Another unpopular take since a lot of people vehemently disagree: Brock Lesnar is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, he's not lazy, he has always cared about his work, and he's a top 5 seller. Quite frankly, the fact that he has convinced so many people he doesn't give a shit demonstrates his top tier character work.

Marry me. I'll start filing for divorce from Wife now.

I'm writing a fan fic on this right now.

"When Pizzle Met a Doctor"

Jul 22, 2020 0:48:46 GMT @ness said:

Jul 22, 2020 0:44:30 GMT 🤯 said:

Marry me. I'll start filing for divorce from Wife now.

I'm writing a fan fic on this right now.

"When Pizzle Met a Doctor"

Give it that Twuddker sizzle.

gregzilla knows what I'm talkin' 'bout.

:eyebrows:

Jul 22, 2020 0:58:26 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 22, 2020 0:48:46 GMT @ness said:

I'm writing a fan fic on this right now.

"When Pizzle Met a Doctor"

Give it that Twuddker sizzle.

gregzilla knows what I'm talkin' 'bout.

:eyebrows:

Oh yeah I'll be pming it to like 10+ people and will continue to do so regardless of their interest level.

I'm glad this thread blew up. Tis a happy accident since I only created it because I felt I did too much initial rambling in what was supposed to be a Mr. Wonderful thread.

🤯 Warlord had an all time great look, but was a Vanilla Hoss in every other aspect of wrestling. Still, with the right push/angle, and the right manager, I could have bought into him as a seasonal challenge for Hogan or Warrior. It's not something I ever would have went out of my way to make happen though.

UT Warlord had a couple not terrible matches with Bulldog. Although "not terrible" is probably as good as you were gonna get from Warlord. Not exactly what you want from a main eventer.

Romeo is RIGHT THERE as a singular Paul Roma name. Too bad it doesn't fit in with the rest of that stable. Strobe's Narcissus idea is probably the best we're gonna get.

Jul 19, 2020 23:11:20 GMT Baker said:

Fake Razor & Fake Diesel was an idea worth trying. Yeah, it failed. Big deal. No harm done. Had it worked, the business would have been forever changed. And it did work! In Japan. In Mexico. In basically every other form of entertainment ever. But wrestling fans just weren't ready for this ground breaking concept. Sad.

100% agree with this, especially in light of the perspective yielded by Conrad's podcasts. Given the context of the time, this was a crucial play for IP protection if nothing else.

Unpopular opinion time...

When they finally gave up on Diesel & Razor 2.0, they should've pivoted and rebranded as a new tag team... The 18 Wheelers: Big Rig Bognar & Jake Brake Jacobs!

Jul 21, 2020 22:49:27 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of HIACs... Would it be an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect to say both Brock/Taker HIAC matches were better than either Foley HIAC match?

This is the worst take in this thread.

If you “liked” those matches better, fine. You like what you like. But “better?”

FOLEY’S TOOTH WENT THROUGH HIS NOSE.

Jul 21, 2020 23:17:28 GMT Emperor said:

Partial agreement with Kilgore on Undertaker. I used to believe the hype that he was this god tier worker, but now I'm not at all convinced. He's capable of greatness, and has been great in many decades, which is very impressive, but he has never had any kind of consistency.

The streak matches can hardly be held against him. The matches were obviously worked deliberately as epics, and that was absolutely the right way to work those matches. The streak had taken a life of its own, and beating The Undertaker at Wrestlemania was the biggest kayfabe achievement by a massive distance. Undertaker and his opponents were correct to take their matches to excess. Several of them are considered among the greatest matches of all time, even if they don't necessarily hold up. Most of wrestling's great matches don't hold up, anyway, so that's hardly a valid criticism. Hogan/Andre anyone?

I'm not saying those matches were wrong or don't count now! It's just that if his so-called best stuff is already diminishing, and there are years (decades?) of stuff that is already ruled to be not great, perhaps The Dead Man wasn't as great a worker as his reputation, is all. And even if those matches did hold up, and there are probably many people that would say that they do, it's still a fairly tiny window where Undertaker was putting together great matches, as he'd be in stuck-around-too-long-mode very soon after, and the aforementioned mostly bad periods of work sandwiching 1996/1997/1998 can't be denied. So, it's just a lot of shit to sift through to get to great stuff with 'Taker, and I think it's weird that this isn't stated more, and that he's just routinely penciled in as one of the greatest workers ever.

I think it’s very telling that The Undertaker is almost never in the GOAT conversation. At least in my experience he never is.

Undertaker never comes up. There’s a couple names from every generation that always pop up, and even though he spanned decades, his name isn’t there.

His gimmick was incredible and was the best thing about him, and he was skilled enough to play a monster in the ring, but aside from some big marquee matches and longevity, he didn’t do a whole lot. He was rocketed to the top pretty much from his debut and while he wrestled before that, didn’t really pay his dues as much as a lot of guys he would eventually coach and mentor. He earned everyone’s respect despite that, but the fans don’t care. They like the spectacle of The Undertaker like they like watching an action movie. The Matrix is a fucking dope ass movie but it didn’t deserve Best Picture.

Jul 21, 2020 20:59:51 GMT 🤯 said:

Fucking love this idea! OR... I could settle for Paul Roma being shortened to Roma then expanded to Roman then extapolated to Gladiator.

Mike Awesome had debuted as Gladiator in FMW by September 1990. Let's bring super green Mike Awesome in. So we've got a Gladiator, a couple of Greek Gods, a Viking, a Conan-style Barbarian and... what was Warlord's look really? Terminator meets Phantom of the Opera?

What else could we have? A Hun? A Spartan? Volkoff can become a Mongol again? A Carthaginian called Hannibal who rides to the ring on an elephant?

Shame we would just be a little too late to do a Ghostbusters II tie-in and have The Carpathian be the mastermind of it all.

Jul 21, 2020 22:49:27 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of HIACs... Would it be an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect to say both Brock/Taker HIAC matches were better than either Foley HIAC match?

Don't know if I'd put it above, but I can absolutely see Brock/Taker I on the level of Foley/Taker (and better than HHH/Foley), which actually hasn't got the best rep in some parts. I think it works as one of the truly great spectacle matches because what they do fits the characters and their history adds to it. Brock/Taker II, no way.

Jul 21, 2020 22:55:08 GMT Kilgore said:

Since we're talking 'Taker, might as well drop a hot take on 'Taker, and it's that he's been bad significantly (exponentially?) longer than he's been good.

If someone left the IWC (I feel like that term has died really) in 2006 say and came back in 2014, they'd be shocked by the change in Taker's standing among smarky fans. And you are right, I think that change was largely due to The Streak matches being seen as some of the greatest matches ever. I also understand that you can say "well, it's easy to make the crowd lose their shit and make the match seem special and important with just doing a bunch of kick-outs, that's not that impressive". But you can also shit on pretty much any match that has no prior overness of competitors or the gimmick that way.

I think Taker should receive props for his early work as the character. It might not have, and almost could not lead to, good-to-great matches (Warrior Bodybag being a surprise exception), but that wasn't his job. His job was to work as The Undertaker and he did that very well. I still think he could've managed better matches overall in those first 5 years or so, but he was often given opponents that make that very difficult (junkie Jake, 1992 Kamala, Gonzalez, Underfaker, Bundy, Kama). When he was given people capable of having good-to-great matches with, he did (Yoko, Diesel, Bret, Michaels).

The Attitude era is one of those times where you can almost give everyone a pass in-ring. He was also working with Kane a hell of a lot and in 1999 he was struggling with the groin issue that would eventually put him out for 9 months. I do understand that he is getting a lot of "buts" and excuses here.

So then we move to ABA. Taker comes back, all healed up (as much as he could be I guess), no longer bound at all by the gimmick and with good opponents to work with. Excuses are off the table and... he pretty much sucked. I remember him having a middling match with Benoit on the UK PPV. I don't remember liking the Angle Survivor Series match. He managed to have a mediocre PPV main event with Austin during Austin's incredible run in 2001. He has the terrible DDP stuff, where he just buried him. I know the KroniK match has him working with Kane and going against Adam Bomb and Crush, but it is still woeful.

2002 at least had some good-to-great stuff (Flair Mania, Jeff ladder, Rock/Angle triple threat, Brock HIAC) to compensate for general meh-ness. I don't remember much positive about 2003 before he got buried to return as the Deadman. His return match against Kane was awful. I know Kane is outrageously shite, but if Taker was one of the elite workers, he'd have found a way to work better matches with him or at least have hit the decent level more often. After Eddie had made JBL, I remember his JBL matches being terrible.

I'll leave it there, but yeah, he definitely seems to get way more of a pass for some of his utter rank stuff than basically anyone.

In regards to the gimmick, Rumble 1994 was really the turning point. Before that, the supernaturalness was only suggested. We'd seen what was in the urn at This Tuesday in Texas - it was ashes as you'd expect. Hogan used them to blind Taker before pinning him. Was this guy an undead monster? Or did Paul Bearer have him under some form of mind control? Whose ashes were in the urn? Maybe Taker's dead parents? Is that why he was drawn to it?

Then they have him float to the ceiling and disappear at Rumble 1994. Then you have the Underfaker. Who the fuck is this guy? Where did he come from? Did he himself think he was the Undertaker? Was he just attempting to con DiBiase into thinking he was Taker? But he can no-sell like the Undertaker and beat fucking Tatanka in 1994. Why wouldn't he just hang around and be one of the top wrestlers in the world even after losing to Taker? Is there some realm where there are just a bunch of Undertakers and he escaped from there to try to take the spot of the other? What the fuck was this storyline?

On a recent Between the Sheets podcast, the guest (some wrestler/promoter whose name is escaping me and I can't be arsed looking it up) made the suggestion of Taker's supernaturalness being exposed during the Corporate Ministry time as Vince the promoter helping him do it, which could have been an interesting way to go. Taker always being one of Vince's pets/creations and him hoodwinking even the other wrestlers into believing in the powers of this man.

Jul 22, 2020 8:22:07 GMT Strobe said:

Is there some realm where there are just a bunch of Undertakers and he escaped from there to try to take the spot of the other

Whether as a wrestling angle or as a Rock N Wrestling-style cartoon, I want to see this elaborated on so bad. I'm just envisioning it something like a House of Cosbys, but instead it's a House of Takers. All the Underfakers have something slightly off about them.

Shit, now I also want to see a Teenage Mutant Ninja Taker spinoff with four Takers with different colors to match their turtle counterparts. Grey glove/boot Taker gets killed off. Purple glove/boot Taker returns (real Undertaker?), along with blue glove/boot Taker (Brian Lee?), red glove/boot Taker (Kane?), and orange glove/boot Taker (Sid?) with Sherri as April and Paul Bearer as Sensei Splinter.

Jul 22, 2020 8:22:07 GMT Strobe said:

On a recent Between the Sheets podcast, the guest (some wrestler/promoter whose name is escaping me and I can't be arsed looking it up) made the suggestion of Taker's supernaturalness being exposed during the Corporate Ministry time as Vince the promoter helping him do it, which could have been an interesting way to go. Taker always being one of Vince's pets/creations and him hoodwinking even the other wrestlers into believing in the powers of this man.

I would love to see your and/or one of our fellow genius rebooking minds elaborate on the beats of how they'd execute this. Ministry of Darkness/Corporate Ministry is a period so ripe for retooling IMO. But I've never seen anyone actually outline how or what to do differently.

Since we've brought up Taker, I'll ask in here: why is everyone all over the place acting like this recent Taker docu is his first real time breaking kayfabe?

The guy had his legit wife on screen for months and even had her name tattooed on his fucking throat. They talked about how he was from Texas. He did out-of-kayfabe interviews all over the place during that non-Deadman period. You had the This is My Yard DVD, which shows him as Mark Callous in WCW, the whole "I was told I'd never amount to anything in this business", talks about Vince pitching the gimmick to him, shots of him wrestling with his wife at home, the whole shebang.

Jul 22, 2020 14:49:58 GMT Strobe said:

Since we've brought up Taker, I'll ask in here: why is everyone all over the place acting like this recent Taker docu is his first real time breaking kayfabe?

The guy had his legit wife on screen for months and even had her name tattooed on his fucking throat. They talked about how he was from Texas. He did out-of-kayfabe interviews all over the place during that non-Deadman period. You had the This is My Yard DVD, which shows him as Mark Callous in WCW, the whole "I was told I'd never amount to anything in this business", talks about Vince pitching the gimmick to him, shots of him wrestling with his wife at home, the whole shebang.

Because Vince has conditioned the masses to have short-term and selective memories? :$

UWF could have really competed with Vince if cocaine wasn't such a helluva drug. Even though I like a lot of their material from that particular period in time, early 90's WCW was the pits in terms of relevance.

WWE should have found a better sidekick than fuckin' Rosie for The Hurricane. Shark Boy or El Generico would have been awesome; "El Hurrico", bitches. The "Six-Billion Dollar Entrance Man" Glacier also should have been brought back for a proper super villain rivalry, too. Tell me all of that wouldn't have been awesome? Instead we got lame ECW Hurricane Helms, probably the worst run of his career outside of the 3-Count gimmick. Glacier could have also had his PCO-moment on a big stage; win-win.

This one's definitely not totally uncommon, but -- Christian is a little overrated. The Unprettier is one of my favorite finishers, and I love the guy... but he's no main eventer; I hardly even bought Edge as one until his heel turn. I liked the Cage run in TNA but it wouldn't have worked for me in WWE and I remember everyone clamoring for it before he left. Don't get me wrong, loved the "Peep Show" era but Christian has always been an upper midcard guy to me; Same goes for William Regal if we're being honest.

AEW's women's division isn't AS terrible as everyone makes it out to be. Certainly doesn't rival WWE, Stardom or even Impact, but it's not ECW 2000-01 main event bad. People just like to shit on it because it's definitely AEW's biggest flaw... honestly, Brandi Rhodes and the Dark Order are still worse, at least last time I actually watched (few weeks ago, maybe?)

Baker can suck a fart for not liking Head Cheese. Steve Blackman, the Chuck Norris of wrestling paired with Al Snow, the poor man's Jim Carey of wrestling into one glorious and underrated tour de force; what's not to love, Baker-man?

Kilgore is spot fucking on about Vince; the one genius thing I think he did in his career was the Mr. McMahon character itself. Eventually it was done to death, but Vince does deserve credit for that role, still one of the greatest non-wrestling or wrestling heel characters ever otherwise. But even then, Mr. McMahon really wouldn't have worked on the scale that it did without the character being the foil to Stone Cold's anti-hero, sooo... 'bout that.... post-Austin McMahon 9/10 felt like a bad rehash, even if I didn't start watching until RE era, I could tell even back then that it was a recycled formula. I honestly think the company's product will improve once Vince passes (not hoping for that or anything, I'm no twisted fuck) but it's going to improve somewhat creatively. Most of the framework will definitely be maintained though; the company is too corporately entrenched at this point not to, but creatively, Trips will probably be better. Or the company could just end up being acquired by a Jared Kushner-like slum lord corporate executive and then we're alllll fucked... or Disney. Honestly Disney could strangely end up becoming the best of outcomes.

AEW's women's division isn't AS terrible as everyone makes it out to be.

The right take.

Impact made a boss move putting the title on Deonna, but nobody can compete with Shida.

If we get Lacey vs. Shida this lifetime, I'll die a happy man.

Jul 22, 2020 18:13:39 GMT rad said:

Kilgore is spot fucking on about Vince; the one genius thing I think he did in his career was the Mr. McMahon character itself. Eventually it was done to death, but Vince does deserve credit for that role, still one of the greatest non-wrestling or wrestling heel characters ever otherwise. But even then, Mr. McMahon really wouldn't have worked on the scale that it did without the character being the foil to Stone Cold's anti-hero, sooo... 

Also, it often gets left out that Eric Bischoff was doing the heel boss gimmick for a year-and-a-half before Vince every fully committed to being heel fodder to Stone Cold, so while Mr. McMahon obviously ruled, full credit to Vince as a performer, it's also true that this was the opposite of a visionary idea, and just a WCW retread, really, executed by what would turn out to be two of the greatest performers ever. And as you pointed out, as soon as Stone Cold was out of the equation, it never worked quite as well. 

To be fair the non-Deadman period was a LONG ass time ago. Way past the 30 day window.

Jul 22, 2020 8:22:07 GMT Strobe said:

Jul 21, 2020 22:49:27 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of HIACs... Would it be an unpopular opinion, bad take, or disconnect to say both Brock/Taker HIAC matches were better than either Foley HIAC match?

Don't know if I'd put it above, but I can absolutely see Brock/Taker I on the level of Foley/Taker (and better than HHH/Foley), which actually hasn't got the best rep in some parts. I think it works as one of the truly great spectacle matches because what they do fits the characters and their history adds to it. Brock/Taker II, no way.

I'm still bothered by this. Have you seen Brock/Taker HIAC 2? It's just barely behind their first one, IMO. Felt like the epic and fitting conclusion not not just their 2010s issue but their overall rivalry since 2002 too.

=====

I'll throw another unpopular opinion, bad take, and/or disconnect out there...
Even post-2007, I still stand by this: Pivoting Benoit into that WHC triple threat with HHH & HBK and having Brock drop the belt to Eddie was the absolutely wrong way to go. We absolutely should've had Brock/Benoit II closing WMXX with Benoit making Brock tap to not only win the title but send Brock packing. It doesn't even matter what else you do to sort the rest of the WMXX card out... it still would've been better. Whether you throw Eddie into the triple threat with HHH & HBK, run HHH vs. HBK "ONE LAST TIME!", or whatever. Bob Holly getting a PPV title shot at Brock wasn't as bad of an offense. Save Eddie's crowning moment for some point later on.

Jul 22, 2020 19:37:16 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 22, 2020 8:22:07 GMT Strobe said:

Don't know if I'd put it above, but I can absolutely see Brock/Taker I on the level of Foley/Taker (and better than HHH/Foley), which actually hasn't got the best rep in some parts. I think it works as one of the truly great spectacle matches because what they do fits the characters and their history adds to it. Brock/Taker II, no way.

I'm still bothered by this. Have you seen Brock/Taker HIAC 2?

Yeah, I remember liking it, just not at the level of Brock/Taker I or Taker/Foley. The "no way" might make it seem like I was shitting on it, but it was more that I found it clearly below them, not necessarily massively so.