Austin could throw the odd loose round, but Foley by and large was willing to bump his ass off to make his opponent look like a million bucks. Austin had to be smarter around guys like The Undertaker because they were baby-baby and Austin felt that to tell that story he had to fight from underneath. It was smart business because they needed somebody to challenge Austin.

Considering the state of the roster, I thought they largely played it smart with Austin, even when they had to eat crow at Breakdown and Judgement Day to set the course for Wrestlemania. Rock Bottom is an exception and it was one of the few programs that even for it's time sucked. The WWF had nothing and just had to kill time before the Royal Rumble, that's the long and the short of it. While I'd like to say Undertaker-Austin was merely a contingency plan they had to execute on because their original plan fell through, considering the original plan was Austin/Bossman I'd whole heartedly agree the WWF had screwed the pooch.

That was the thing with the WWF around that time though. They could put together a pretty uninspired PPV and then they'd come up with a few new acts for the following Raw and suddenly the show felt fresh and exciting again.

Aug 6, 2020 22:33:47 GMT 🤯 said:

Aug 6, 2020 22:27:29 GMT Todd said:

You're right. I'm thinking of the Austin era after Mania 14.

But I'm talking about straight up wrestling matches. No bells and whistles. It's very difficult to think of a great match pre-Invasion that was just a straight up wrestling match.

Whoa. You're going all the way up to the start of the InVasion? Hmmm... I'd have to think. Austin/Benoit, Benoit/Kurt at WMX7, Benoit/Rock at Fully Loaded 2000... Pretty much anything Benoit did on PPV, I guess?

Not to mention Benoit/Jericho throughout 2000, any combo of Hardys/Dudleys/E&C, Jericho/HHH LMS just off the top of my head, but that kinda reinforces how good the undercard was and shows how clustered the main event WWF Title picture is that there’s really no major stand out great match because most were overbooked to fuck.

Must be a big ass burger or you're taking reviewbrah teeny tiny baby bites.

Jul 22, 2020 18:30:30 GMT Big Pete said:

AEW's women's division isn't AS terrible as everyone makes it out to be.

The right take.

Impact made a boss move putting the title on Deonna, but nobody can compete with Shida.

If we get Lacey vs. Shida this lifetime, I'll die a happy man.

I loved Shida's title reign. She grew a lot within her time as champ. I loved how she was adapt her style without changing herself to fit into American wrestling.

Jun 8, 2022 22:14:38 GMT @ness said:

Must be a big ass burger or you're taking reviewbrah teeny tiny baby bites.

My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

Jun 10, 2022 0:48:26 GMT RT said:

Jun 8, 2022 22:14:38 GMT @ness said:

Must be a big ass burger or you're taking reviewbrah teeny tiny baby bites.

My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

Underrated post

Jul 22, 2020 18:13:39 GMT rad said:

I honestly think the company's product will improve once Vince passes (not hoping for that or anything, I'm no twisted fuck) but it's going to improve somewhat creatively. Most of the framework will definitely be maintained though; the company is too corporately entrenched at this point not to, but creatively, Trips will probably be better. Or the company could just end up being acquired by a Jared Kushner-like slum lord corporate executive and then we're alllll fucked... or Disney. Honestly Disney could strangely end up becoming the best of outcomes.

That's weird, never realized I had accidentally predicted the rise of Nick Khan.

Bray Wyatt was awful (in ring and as a character) and I'm super confused why so many are so obsessed with him!

Aug 11, 2022 23:15:38 GMT @aaron said:

Bray Wyatt was awful (in ring and as a character) and I'm super confused why so many are so obsessed with him!

Original character was amazing, and he probably should have remained a mouthpiece for The Wyatt Family and then used occasionally as a wrestler to maintain some mystique. Personally I think the other members of the Wyatt Family are completely over-rated. Erik was walking plank of wood, and Harper's abilities are exaggerated because he was such a well liked guy. Potentially the unit would have had more success, similarly to The Shield or The New Day if the supporting two were a lot stronger. 

I think where The Wyatt Family falls down is (apart from Bray's mic work and the overall aesthetic and presentation) is not a single one of the three had a single core strength that made up for each other's weaknesses.

If you look at The Shield in those early days. Seth was a bumping machine, a highlight reel. Ambrose had a certain unpredictability and charisma. And Roman, a unparalleled presence. You throw all that into a blender with a chaotic 6-man tag and it masks the fact Seth was essentially a spot monkey, Ambrose was a clumsy, awkward worker and Roman was as green covid snot. 

I'm not a Wyatt fan but I guess the reason people support him is that he has a drive to be super creative and push the boat with his characters in a way few other wrestlers do.

The Firefly Funhouse/Fiend character is really fascinating on paper, and we got John Cena's bizarre unofficial retirement match out of it. Trouble is that was arguably the one great thing that came out of the whole Fiend phase. All the other Fiend angles/matches were pure Wrestlecrap.

He's pretty bad in the ring so he's unable to execute his true vision in his matches.

Bray Wyatt was great at first. It was refreshing to see an actual character. Original Wyatt Family even dragged me back for a minute. I'd at least make it a point to watch all his/their segments. Within a few months I lost interest as I usually do with post-2009 wrestling.

The one Firefly Funhouse Segment I saw was some of the biggest Wrestlecrap I ever had the misfortune to encounter. Pete tried explaining the appeal, but you had to be familiar with some show, or Youtuber, or something along those lines. Meh.



I have little doubt WWE did him dirty though. He was definitely generating buzz during The Fiend thing. Then they (allegedly) killed him. 

Liked the initial version of Bray for the same reasons Baker did. Loved the care in presentation. The chair, the lantern, and so on. Also thinking about all the smoke and mirrors that have to be done for BIG WRESTLEMANIA ENTRANCES, and Bray's was simply walking to the ring with a cheap LED lantern you'd get in an infomercial with fans simply turning their cell phones on for "fireflies" and it was the coolest entrance of its time. Love when simple things are more powerful than the elaborate. 

Where it wasn't good: Bray's ability to talk while saying nothing. Because he was so good at talking (on a strictly mechanical level, forming words and seeming sincere), he gained a reputation as a "great promo." And he was, but only on a superficial level. Because as time went by people started realizing how incoherent the promos were, few memorable things were ever actually said, and (in his defense) he was at the whims of a bad WWE creative team that could contradict the things he was saying the very next week, it was like a slow reveal that the thing we all thought he did great actually kind of sucked. 

This might seem small, but Bray wasn't a good wrestler. His success was his promos and the lore of the gimmick, and as as the veneer of both of those things started to wear, you had to start asking yourself: "What is he good at, exactly?" Because it started to become unclear. It started to seem like nothing. 

Some of this is also booking, which I'm less familiar with. But a common complaint was he would always lose the big match, which would undermine all the threats. That sort of heel has to be kept strong. Even if he's winning by strength in numbers, as long as he wins, and he wasn't winning.  

I imagine Bray, with a good creative team, feeding him actual substantive material for promos, and booking him better, would have succeeded. It would have hid a lot of his flaws. That said, I don't know that it's much of a missed opportunity that they didn't. The flaws would still be there, especially in the ring, so the ceiling might have only been a little higher. 

A character like the original concept can still exist in professional wrestling. Pro wrestling is still wacky enough to allow that, but the supernatural elements, particularly with The Fiend has no place in 2019+

And while it certainly allowed Alexa to showcase her talents, the entire thing is pure garbage. You still need to retain some elements of realism.

Potentially dropping the Fire Fly crap and leaving Bray as The Fiend, pulling the red lighting and again the key almost that we've established is, less is more with Wyatt. Slow down the promos, hit the talking points, and wrestle every other month.

Roman Reigns certainly understands this.

And realistically, if the man lost 50lbs he might have been a decent performer.

Aug 12, 2022 20:27:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Where it wasn't good: Bray's ability to talk while saying nothing. Because he was so good at talking (on a strictly mechanical level, forming words and seeming sincere), he gained a reputation as a "great promo." And he was, but only on a superficial level. Because as time went by people started realizing how incoherent the promos were, few memorable things were ever actually said, and (in his defense) he was at the whims of a bad WWE creative team that could contradict the things he was saying the very next week, it was like a slow reveal that the thing we all thought he did great actually kind of sucked. 

I meant to respond to this specific point a while back, fortunately I remembered. There is an important distinction between being a great speaker and a great promo, and the two don't always go hand in hand. Usually you can't be a great promo without being a great speaker first.

But the content is even more important, and as Kilgore correctly points out, that's where Bray Wyatt loses points. A guy like CM Punk is a fantastic speaker but also knows how to sell a match or a storyline. Look at the Pipebomb. Yes, he got his out-of-kayfabe cheap shots to pop the smarks, but as a whole the promo was directed against WWE, the establishment, with John Cena as the proxy. Cena is the Yankess and all that. Phenomenal promo. Certainly made me want to see CM Punk vs John Cena.

There's plenty of guys who are great speakers. I'd say Bryan Danielson is a great speaker - he's fluent, articulate, etc can make his point.

But at no point do you get really fucking excited by what he's saying on a weekly basis like someone like Hulk Hogan - who was an amazing promo. It's all hype, catchphrase after catchphrase, high energy delivery - it's a promotional tool after all. But there's no real substance to it.

But where the real magic happens is when they're a great storyteller. It's a combination of both traits. Flair, Rock, Punk, Cena, etc.

On Bray Wyatt, one could argue the speaking in tounges for 10 minutes and saying nothing at all, actually fits his character perfectly. This is an uneducated religious zealot from the swamp with delusions of grandeur, bordering on megalomania. What would you expect from a nut like Wyatt?

The issue with Bray is that they couldn't make his character work in a Pro Wrestling context. It was one of the few times where the WWE was ahead of the zeitgeist. Bray Wyatt would have been a perfect fit for the first season of True Detective that everybody raved about. But when you take that character and put them in a PG WWE Universe where the aim is to put smiles on faces there's a disconnect.

You can't have a satanic cult leader who pranks people with holographic projections of maggots in the ring and expect fans to care. Also how many rivalries can he have? What's the selling point behind a rivalry with Seth Rollins, Dolph Ziggler, Chris Jericho, Kofi Kingston, Sheamus etc? I'm not saying they can't be done but there were so many occasions where they just threw Bray against these guys and there was no selling point.

This was only muddled further with the Firefly Funhouse. I was never a huge fan of the idea because I didn't understand how you could take 'Don't Hug Me I'm Scared' and turn it into a WWE gimmick. The whole appeal of demented kids show was taking a G-rated concept and turning it R-rated to expose the sinister undertones that plague our society. Not only was this the opposite but who was the natural opponent? Right to Censor? To add more confusion to the mix, they decided to make it a split personality gimmick and went so far to steal from Mick Foley they even gave the Fiend the Mandible Claw as a finish.

The whole concept was a mess and the further they went with it the worst it became.

Could Bray Wyatt have worked? Yes, absolutely. We've had big fat guys who rub their asses against somebody's face get insanely over, anything is possible. However in an environment where the biggest star is the WWE Universe and the money matches like the Royal Rumble, Money in the Bank, Brand vs. Brand Survivor Series the character was always going to be neutered.

The second I saw Husky Harris " the army tank with a Ferrari engine " I saw menacing redneck and that's how they should have kept it.

Arguably it did work for a number of years, but then really lost it's way during his feud with Orton.

WWE doesn't need Wyatt back, they can put Joe Gacy under the mask and you wouldn't know the difference.

I struggle to remember what happened with Bray after the filler program he had with Jericho. If memory serves, they broke up the Wyatt Family not long after and Rowan followed his dreams and became a vintner. Bray occupied himself with Ambrose and for reasons I can't recall decided to cost Dean the Hell in a Cell match against Ambrose. They feuded and it ended when Ambrose electrocuted himself at TLC. Then Bray turned his attention to the Deadman who made short work of him before doing the honours for the Big Dawg. At which point they brought back the Family, added Braun Strowman and they were swiftly defeated by the Brothers of Destruction.

I can't remember enjoying anything Bray did during that time and it seemed like after the Cena feud they did everything they could with the character.

He also did a lot of promos where he rambled on and on but said absolutely nothing that made any sense.

I remember (myself included) loving Sean O'Haire and his devil's advocate gimmick. Didn't get over and it's often suggested something like that just couldn't translate to the ring. Is that what Bray was? Basically if they actually tried with him he'd just be Wyatt? They just took longer to figure it out.

Sept 4, 2022 14:27:16 GMT @ness said:

I remember (myself included) loving Sean O'Haire and his devil's advocate gimmick. Didn't get over and it's often suggested something like that just couldn't translate to the ring. Is that what Bray was? Basically if they actually tried with him he'd just be Wyatt? They just took longer to figure it out.

O'Haire fell into the same trap Tommy Gunn did in Rocky V. Instead of being his own man, he became Roddy's boy and they neutered the gimmick. They actually gave him a big push to begin with having him beat Rikishi, Hogan, Benoit & Eddie but it was the wrong push. Sure enough when the WWE released Piper after a controversial interview O'Haire copped the brunt of it and was never seen again on WWE TV.

I don't think he suited the system because Corny hated his work as well. Yet he was considered a future Heavyweight Champion in WCW.

This is a small dose of a larger perspective of the Triple H reign of terror in 03 as I want to play this out before I give my opinion on it. But here is one of the weirdest booking decisions I’ve encountered over my 98 onwards watch through…

Bad Blood 2003, Triple H v Kevin Nash, HIAC with Mick Foley special ref, by the final 5 minutes it’s a bloodbath with both men hitting each other with everything not nailed down, H grabs the sledge from under the ring, goes to use it but Foley steals in and the crowd correctly boos him, who’s the babyface in this match? Because Triple H is battling 2 talentless hacks here and fighting from under 😂

I absolutely loved the Thunderdome. No stupid chants, no annoying signs and it just looked so cool. I miss it.

My local radio djs are big wrestling fans. They call their call in shows various wrestling things...

Thunder phones
Calls to the wall calls count anywhere

And they love using Seth's first post shield theme.

They even using nwos theme for the lawyer question segment. Complete with fading nwo intro. It's kinda great.

Oct 1, 2022 13:38:35 GMT @ness said:

My local radio djs are big wrestling fans. They call their call in shows various wrestling things...

Thunder phones
Calls to the wall calls count anywhere

And they love using Seth's first post shield theme.

They even using nwos theme for the lawyer question segment. Complete with fading nwo intro. It's kinda great.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but having Mark Madden as a local radio DJ is (or at least was?) fucking awesome for very similar reasons.

Oct 1, 2022 12:04:49 GMT @aaron said:

I absolutely loved the Thunderdome. No stupid chants, no annoying signs and it just looked so cool. I miss it.

My entire interest in WWE was nearly killed off during the thunderdome era. 

Sorry, if 20 or more people are allowed to sweat all over each other in the ring each week, surely a few bodies 1.5m apart isn't going to hurt anyone. 

I liked the Thunderdome shows because it allowed WWE to tell the stories exactly as intended. But I really struggled with the LEDs everywhere, it felt too sterile.

There were no “what” chants!

NO “WHAT” CHANTS!

What?

Can you believe that's been over for 21 years.