Aug 31, 2024 21:19:41 GMT c said:

So moving the goalposts again. All this bitching and moaning, first they will not get deal, then they will not get a increase in their deal, now oh well their deal must include PPVs. Get bent, you all been shitting on the fed for over a year and using this shit to do it. Just admit you do not like the fed and move the fuck on, this all is like really pathetic.

Oh fuck off. You’ve been building strawmen for three years.

I think AEW is garbage now. It used to not be.

You know who else seemingly does? The 400K viewers that also don’t tune in.

The thousands of fans who don’t go anymore.

Why don’t you just admit there’s no way you’ll have good faith criticism because you hate the Fed so much; you’ll suck any competitor’s dick?

Seriously just take this shit to fan fiction if you are making shit up. This is supposed to be for AEW News not I do not watch the fed or care about it but want to fan fic book the financial strategy of it.

What you have is not good faith criticism.  You have no sources for the shit you are stating as fact.

Aug 31, 2024 21:22:58 GMT c said:

Seriously just take this shit to fan fiction if you are making shit up. This is supposed to be for AEW News but I do not watch the fed or care about it but want to fan fic book the financial strategy of it.

I can talk about whatever area of the business I want to fucking talk about.

Aug 31, 2024 21:22:58 GMT c said:

Seriously just take this shit to fan fiction if you are making shit up. This is supposed to be for AEW News but I do not watch the fed or care about it but want to fan fic book the financial strategy of it.

What you have is not good faith criticism.  You have no sources for the shit you are stating as fact.

I’m not claiming what I say is ANYONE’s reports other than my opinion. You’re still not fucking getting that?

No you just piss and moan when shit is posted here because your imaginary information does not fit the real narrative that WBD is happy with the fed and plans to keep working with them in the future.

Aug 31, 2024 21:26:53 GMT c said:

No you just piss and moan when shit is posted here because your imaginary information does not fit the real narrative that WBD is happy with the fed and plans to keep working with them in the future.

Prove they’re happy. Show me where WBD is publicly praising AEW in the last six months.

I can’t recall where I’ve come out and said “WBD is unhappy with AEW; cancellation imminent.” But hey, show me where I did and I’ll concede the fact. Otherwise, stop building fucking strawmen.

I’ve said repeatedly I hope they get a renewal. I’ve said they haven’t earned a massive renewal because they’ve declined continuously from where they were.

I stand by those statements.

By the way, if anyone wants to spend a Saturday trolling the archives, you can find me this venomous to WWE in 17-20.

Aug 31, 2024 21:23:39 GMT KJ said:

Aug 31, 2024 21:22:58 GMT c said:

Seriously just take this shit to fan fiction if you are making shit up. This is supposed to be for AEW News but I do not watch the fed or care about it but want to fan fic book the financial strategy of it.

I can talk about whatever area of the business I want to fucking talk about.

One final thought - I concentrate my AEW criticism to this thread and the “Problems with AEW” thread. I don’t go trolling or shitting on the fed in TV or PPV party threads.

AEW has let me down immensely.

A few of you use this thread to take every shot you can at AEW and basically are fan ficing their collapse. You want to do that take that shit elsewhere it is fucking annoying for people who want to come here to enjoy wrestling to have people who do not fucking the fucking product shit all over the threads involving it.

And yes I like AEW, why the fuck would I go online to talk about the fed if I did not. This should not be like fucking crazy talk to say that maybe people want to talk about stuff they like without people coming in shitting all over all based on bullshit.

I been fair with real criticism, but when you all fucking talk about ratings and ignore that 44 million people cut the cord this year or talk about live attendance going down while inflation is raging it is not a serious conversation. It is just comparisons to WWE used to shit on AEW. It is fucking boring.

Make your own thread fan ficing the collapse of AEW, but this is not real news about the fed, and it getting very, very old to have the same group just post here to shit on the people who like watching AEW.

Aug 31, 2024 21:35:26 GMT KJ said:

Aug 31, 2024 21:23:39 GMT KJ said:

I can talk about whatever area of the business I want to fucking talk about.

One final thought - I concentrate my AEW criticism to this thread and the “Problems with AEW” thread. I don’t go trolling or shitting on the fed in TV or PPV party threads.

AEW has let me down immensely.

This I had no issue with.  Yes, the booking sucked.  We all saw All In 2.  It was a weak card for All In.  And we all know booking is spotty at best.  But that is not what is being dumped here regularly.  It is all this fed is run by children, WBD does not like them, they are going to collapse, Tony is ruining wrestling as a whole, etc.  It is boring.  If people do not like a fed, do not watch it as nothing hurt a fed more than apathy towards them.  But do not come and shit all over those who do.

Aug 31, 2024 21:38:31 GMT c said:

Aug 31, 2024 21:35:26 GMT KJ said:

One final thought - I concentrate my AEW criticism to this thread and the “Problems with AEW” thread. I don’t go trolling or shitting on the fed in TV or PPV party threads.

AEW has let me down immensely.

This I had no issue with.  Yes, the booking sucked.  We all saw All In 2.  It was a weak card for All In.  And we all know booking is spotty at best.  But that is not what is being dumped here regularly.  It is all this fed is run by children, WBD does not like them, they are going to collapse, Tony is ruining wrestling as a whole, etc.  It is boring.  If people do not like a fed, do not watch it as nothing hurt a fed more than apathy towards them.  But do not come and shit all over those who do.

I have NOT ONCE shit on AEW fans.

I shit on AEW and TK, and YOU take it personally.

Aug 31, 2024 21:36:27 GMT c said:

A few of you use this thread to take every shot you can at AEW and basically are fan ficing their collapse. You want to do that take that shit elsewhere it is fucking annoying for people who want to come here to enjoy wrestling to have people who do not fucking the fucking product shit all over the threads involving it.

And yes I like AEW, why the fuck would I go online to talk about the fed if I did not. This should not be like fucking crazy talk to say that maybe people want to talk about stuff they like without people coming in shitting all over all based on bullshit.

I been fair with real criticism, but when you all fucking talk about ratings and ignore that 44 million people cut the cord this year or talk about live attendance going down while inflation is raging it is not a serious conversation. It is just comparisons to WWE used to shit on AEW. It is fucking boring.

Make your own thread fan ficing the collapse of AEW, but this is not real news about the fed, and it getting very, very old to have the same group just post here to shit on the people who like watching AEW.

You don’t get define what’s boring or where we post.

You say don’t like AEW, don’t watch it?

I say don’t like my posts, don’t engage.

(BTW - When WWE is *thriving* in this economy, and ratings are holding steady despite the cord cutting, those points become a bit … diluted)

c It is a little bit ironic, that you'd accuse people of being assholes and negative and then suggest people should just move on and ignore the product if they don't like it, when you run several threads in OT continuously attacking particular people in politics and popular culture as if you know them personally.

To borrow your favourite opening line " I find it hilarious "

God damn, 41 posts, maybe I should have just started the TV rights deal thread.

I still think Warner-Discovery will offer an extension, but we'll never know the details so the speculation will rage on for years to come. Not that any of it matters because if Tony is happy to spend his father's money on his pet project they won't have to worry about finances like they had to with WCW.

Sept 1, 2024 14:03:07 GMT Big Pete said:

God damn, 41 posts, maybe I should have just started the TV rights deal thread.

I still think Warner-Discovery will offer an extension, but we'll never know the details so the speculation will rage on for years to come. Not that any of it matters because if Tony is happy to spend his father's money on his pet project they won't have to worry about finances like they had to with WCW.

I think it’s likely too (which I’ve said for years). I think the terms are the debate.

Which is a debate that will rage on until AEW have to negotiate their next TV deal. For mine, as long as AEW remains on WBD it's all moot.

I don't think there's some sinister ulterior motive behind these discussions. I don't think anybody on here wants to see AEW fail, it's the opposite, they want to see them thrive and make the landscape better for everyone. Yes, there's some light-hearted ribbing and yes at a certain point it does become obnoxious but the distortions and strawmen arguments we've seen in this thread and others are ridiculous.

I do think fans get too caught up in the ratings and attendance figures. It's not the end all to be end all and even quality programs struggle to find a mass audience. However it's definitely a part of the discussion and when it comes to AEW, I think fans are trying to make sense of it because the company constantly yo-yos from trying to hot-shot shows to purely booking for the 'sickos'. Again, I don't think fans want to see AEW fail, they just want to see a positive response.

It's not for nothing either. When AEW first launched, there was a period where the show was going down hill and their big Elite/Dark Order storyline was tanking. So AEW read the response, course corrected and delivered some quality shows before the pandemic took the wind out of everyone's sails.

I agree with all of that’s, and it’s a more calmly stated take on my main points yesterday.

Here’s the thing for me about ratings and attendance - fuck TV renewals.

I view the declining *everything* as a validation that the show is bad. If it was growing and I didn’t like it, I don’t really have a leg to stand on.

The fact it’s declining in basically all quantifiable metrics adds credence to the “AEW has lost its way and burned its goodwill.”

I do want to unpack something you said earlier.

You said you enjoyed the product three years ago, what's changed since then? Was it purely the CM Punk drama or do you have other issues? Personally I don't think the presentation has changed all that much, do you consider the show stale?

I agree with KJ, the metrics ( ratings, attendance, etc ) are a reflection of the quality of the show. You can't argue against it.

If you owned a Cafe and you said to your accountant, sure sales are down and there's less people coming through the door, but business is good because of a 5 star Yelp review... you'd be laughed at. Sell some coffee dude.

I made the comment they do PPV well, and television terribly.

The PPV is the end game, the end result. And they have one of the most talented rosters ever in the business. And the top end delivers in ring. Hence why people will eventually/always tune in. Take MJF v Ospreay and Danielson v Swerve... fucking unbelievable matches. But the television building to it... horrible. Having to listen to Ospreay having a panic attack every time MJF is a prick.. please.

The product is too inconsistent in quality, as I've argued for years - the top end of the card is amazing. Everything else is painfully terrible, or barely passable for TV. And a big part of that problem is the fact they've still got 2 or 3 or 4 different rosters. TK is still out here talking about the Collision locker-room like it 2004 and it's Smackdown v Raw...

I was thinking about WWE in comparison. WWE is always " very good " but rarely great. AEW has moments of absolute greatness. Again, those two matches from ALL IN ( there isn't anyone in WWE that would of been capable of delivering that high a standard ) but the rest of the product is rarely any good at all.

Take the best 25 or 30 guys Tony and make them work twice a week, it's not going to kill them, unless they're afraid of the grind of course.. and the product would improve over night.

Sept 2, 2024 0:18:43 GMT Big Pete said:

I do want to unpack something you said earlier.

You said you enjoyed the product three years ago, what's changed since then? Was it purely the CM Punk drama or do you have other issues? Personally I don't think the presentation has changed all that much, do you consider the show stale?

I think there’s a few things.

Three years ago, I think the show felt way different. Maybe it was the level of coherent and engaging storylines, though. We had Kenny’s title reign, the redemption of Page, the ascension of MJF, the debut of Punk, a thriving Inner Cicle, and Cody. I’m sure I’m forgetting someone, but by and large your ME scene is 5-6 guys.

AEW has continued to add new toy after new toy, it’s only diluted the focus. The top guys are now well over a dozen. But now, no one can take a loss (it seems). They avoid legitimate top guy feuds because there’s this fear of beating them. So instead you have multiple stars running in place with no heat or purpose.

Additionally, the glut of titles continues to increase. That’s only led to one-note “I want the title” feuds vs. deep meaning.

And let’s be clear - there are exceptions to all of these. I’m hitting the recurring issues over the last 30-36 months.

OH!

Also, the show continues to be immune to defining heels and faces. People just fit the role of whatever crowd reaction they’re getting that night, without the booking reflecting it.

A recent one: Toni Storm’s face turn was precipitated by nothing except fan reactions shifting. There’s no narrative IMO.

Sept 2, 2024 3:27:58 GMT NATH45 said:

I agree with KJ, the metrics ( ratings, attendance, etc ) are a reflection of the quality of the show. You can't argue against it.

It's certainly one factor, but at times the ratings can lie and a mediocre episode can draw strong ratings and vice versa. For instance the All In 2023 footage popped a rating, but ratings seemingly went down afterwards. I'd argue that did more harm than good for the company.

With AEW, they've yet to recover from All Out 2022. It's largely all been going in one direction from that point in time and it's going to take more than one decent angle or run to turn it around.

Sept 2, 2024 3:54:10 GMT KJ said:

Three years ago, I think the show felt way different. Maybe it was the level of coherent and engaging storylines, though. We had Kenny’s title reign, the redemption of Page, the ascension of MJF, the debut of Punk, a thriving Inner Cicle, and Cody. I’m sure I’m forgetting someone, but by and large your ME scene is 5-6 guys.

When do you think the show lost it's way? When Cody left or after Revolution when Punk was pushed towards the championship?

Because I think the promotion was stronger when they rallied behind Page and presented him as the anxious millennial. It was something the core group of fans could relate to, it felt modern and there were aspects of the presentation that really connected. When Page was put to the side for Punk, I think it really damaged the company and this current angle with Swerve feels off. We're upset with Hangman because Swerve broke into his home, made references about his family and cheated to beat him on multiple occasions?

There's a disconnect between the fan reaction and the actual on-screen presentation.

I'm not sure if I'm with you on Jericho or Cody. They were both really strong in the beginning but both of them really sabotaged their runs in the company. Cody basically banning himself from the main event, but then booking himself in all these vanity angles completely turned the crowd on him (even when he was doing right by the company and the other talent). Meanwhile fans cottoned onto Jericho being a clout vampire, pairing himself up with the hottest acts, doing these 50/50 feuds, 'putting them over' yet still having as much TV time as ever before.

Sept 2, 2024 3:54:10 GMT KJ said:

OH!

Also, the show continues to be immune to defining heels and faces. People just fit the role of whatever crowd reaction they’re getting that night, without the booking reflecting it.

A recent one: Toni Storm’s face turn was precipitated by nothing except fan reactions shifting. There’s no narrative IMO.

Swerve is an example. He was a babyface.. or atleast the crowd made it seem that way, then he's down for murdering Danielson in front of his family..

Sept 2, 2024 4:34:38 GMT Big Pete said:

Sept 2, 2024 3:54:10 GMT KJ said:

Three years ago, I think the show felt way different. Maybe it was the level of coherent and engaging storylines, though. We had Kenny’s title reign, the redemption of Page, the ascension of MJF, the debut of Punk, a thriving Inner Cicle, and Cody. I’m sure I’m forgetting someone, but by and large your ME scene is 5-6 guys.

When do you think the show lost it's way? When Cody left or after Revolution when Punk was pushed towards the championship?

Because I think the promotion was stronger when they rallied behind Page and presented him as the anxious millennial. It was something the core group of fans could relate to, it felt modern and there were aspects of the presentation that really connected. When Page was put to the side for Punk, I think it really damaged the company and this current angle with Swerve feels off. We're upset with Hangman because Swerve broke into his home, made references about his family and cheated to beat him on multiple occasions?

There's a disconnect between the fan reaction and the actual on-screen presentation.

I'm not sure if I'm with you on Jericho or Cody. They were both really strong in the beginning but both of them really sabotaged their runs in the company. Cody basically banning himself from the main event, but then booking himself in all these vanity angles completely turned the crowd on him (even when he was doing right by the company and the other talent). Meanwhile fans cottoned onto Jericho being a clout vampire, pairing himself up with the hottest acts, doing these 50/50 feuds, 'putting them over' yet still having as much TV time as ever before.

A few years ago, Jericho was used much better. It's really since then that he's fallen off (IMO). But for the first two years of AEW, he was used great.

I never got the hate for the Cody-verse. I enjoyed his feuds and angles almost universally (yeah, there were some misses). Honestly, I never really understood the derisivie name given the entire promotion has always been these little micro-universes of feuds. There's zero interconnectivtiy through the organization. I thought they might be turning the corner with The Elite/TK feud, but by and large, The Elite never tried to run roughshod over the roster. It honestly never really led to much except the umpteenth match vs. FTR.

I think summer 2022 is when it turned. Page was amazing in the chase, but he was a pretty mediocre champion. Punk's run did feel deserved, but the injuries, the BS with Mox and then it culminating in Brawl Out was a huge black eye. How TK managed that situation absolutely soured me (and a lot of others) on the fed, but the entire summer was a clusterfuck.

AEW was seemingly going to turn a corner a year later, with MJF in the lead role. And then came the fucking Adam Cole storyline. All In London was an incredible moment for the company, but we need to all accept that this match, despite headlining, had zero impact on the consumer pull. Having this major moment be headlined by two guys who's build was "they're friends, but who will turn!?" wasted the momentum. Adam Cole also deciding he no longer needs to look like an athlete didn't help. And that story gateway to the Devil storyline, which ... yeah. Again, AEW hasn't recovered.

Great timing.

x.com/makavelidta/status/1830629228498268583?s=61

It's this sort of thing.



But we're the tribalists.

He's had enough and he's not gonna take it.

Sept 2, 2024 23:01:21 GMT NATH45 said:

It's this sort of thing.



But we're the tribalists.

He would fit right in on PW.


...

He might actually already be here.

Sept 2, 2024 23:48:19 GMT KJ said:

A few years ago, Jericho was used much better. It's really since then that he's fallen off (IMO). But for the first two years of AEW, he was used great.

For mine the drop off was the first Stadium Stampede. Up until then, the Inner Circle were pushed strong and able to garner a lot of heat which meshed well with the Elite and the fractures that were happening in that group. However, the pandemic happened, the build up with Broken Matt Hardy was goofy and it seemed like Chris kept leaning in that direction. The Orange Cassidy feud followed the same formula and it seems like since the OC feud, Jericho has taken the same formula and re-used it time and time again with the likes of MJF, Eddie Kingston, Ricky Starks, Hook, Adam Cole etc. to the point where fans are sick of it.

So his career has been trending downwards since 2020. I will say that he navigated 2022 really well. With all that talent coming in, it would have been easy for Chris to end up on the backburner, but he got himself into better shape, improved his ring-work and got Tony to trust him with a lot of projects. However once he dropped the belt to Claudio, it was all down-hill once again.

Sept 2, 2024 23:48:19 GMT KJ said:

Honestly, I never really understood the derisivie name given the entire promotion has always been these little micro-universes of feuds. There's zero interconnectivtiy through the organization.

The issue was that Cody put a ceiling on himself. He effectively made himself the most over-pushed mid-carder on the show and that affected the presentation because you had the gate-keeper clashing with the champ for the focus of the company. I don't think it helped that Cody got complacent as champion and made decisions that distanced himself from the audience and he just couldn't connect with them.

During the early days of AEW, a lot of the storylines revolved around the Elite's YouTube channel. So when Cody abruptly stopped appearing on the show and stopped associating with the Elite on TV, that's when the whole Codyverse talk started. It really came to a head with the Jade Cargill and Nightmare Factory feuds since they were such a huge departure from the typical AEW presentation.

It was also a much smaller company back then, so you did see more interactivity across the show. However as the company has grown, it has become more like Game of Thrones where it seems like everyone is on their own island and the promotion plays out like a game of musical chairs.

Sept 2, 2024 23:48:19 GMT KJ said:

AEW was seemingly going to turn a corner a year later, with MJF in the lead role. And then came the fucking Adam Cole storyline. All In London was an incredible moment for the company, but we need to all accept that this match, despite headlining, had zero impact on the consumer pull. Having this major moment be headlined by two guys who's build was "they're friends, but who will turn!?" wasted the momentum. Adam Cole also deciding he no longer needs to look like an athlete didn't help. And that story gateway to the Devil storyline, which ... yeah. Again, AEW hasn't recovered.

I wasn't a fan of the storyline either, but that's one instance where I can accept the fan response/ratings etc. made it worthwhile.

Personally I thought the entire thing was just a re-run of MJF/Punk with elements of MJF/Sammy thrown in. However the fans were getting into it, they ate up all the skits, goofy in-ring shtick and while I thought it was dumb to book a match where you don't want to see them actually fight it was easily the most popular thing on the show.

The problem was they got too greedy and when they put the ROH Tag Titles on Cole/MJF and had them defend them on PPV over MJF defending the world title, it ate into MJF's popularity. Then like you pointed out, the Devil storyline was a massive flop, fans didn't want to see Cole turn on MJF and the company really lost it's way with Samoa Joe essentially out of nowhere becoming the world champion. Clearly the plan was always Cole, but that should have been shelved after committing to the MJF/Cole stuff.

Sept 3, 2024 1:01:22 GMT Big Pete said:

Sept 2, 2024 23:48:19 GMT KJ said:

A few years ago, Jericho was used much better. It's really since then that he's fallen off (IMO). But for the first two years of AEW, he was used great.

For mine the drop off was the first Stadium Stampede. Up until then, the Inner Circle were pushed strong and able to garner a lot of heat which meshed well with the Elite and the fractures that were happening in that group. However, the pandemic happened, the build up with Broken Matt Hardy was goofy and it seemed like Chris kept leaning in that direction. The Orange Cassidy feud followed the same formula and it seems like since the OC feud, Jericho has taken the same formula and re-used it time and time again with the likes of MJF, Eddie Kingston, Ricky Starks, Hook, Adam Cole etc. to the point where fans are sick of it.

So his career has been trending downwards since 2020. I will say that he navigated 2022 really well. With all that talent coming in, it would have been easy for Chris to end up on the backburner, but he got himself into better shape, improved his ring-work and got Tony to trust him with a lot of projects. However once he dropped the belt to Claudio, it was all down-hill once again.

Sept 2, 2024 23:48:19 GMT KJ said:

Honestly, I never really understood the derisivie name given the entire promotion has always been these little micro-universes of feuds. There's zero interconnectivtiy through the organization.

The issue was that Cody put a ceiling on himself. He effectively made himself the most over-pushed mid-carder on the show and that affected the presentation because you had the gate-keeper clashing with the champ for the focus of the company. I don't think it helped that Cody got complacent as champion and made decisions that distanced himself from the audience and he just couldn't connect with them.

During the early days of AEW, a lot of the storylines revolved around the Elite's YouTube channel. So when Cody abruptly stopped appearing on the show and stopped associating with the Elite on TV, that's when the whole Codyverse talk started. It really came to a head with the Jade Cargill and Nightmare Factory feuds since they were such a huge departure from the typical AEW presentation.

It was also a much smaller company back then, so you did see more interactivity across the show. However as the company has grown, it has become more like Game of Thrones where it seems like everyone is on their own island and the promotion plays out like a game of musical chairs.

Sept 2, 2024 23:48:19 GMT KJ said:

AEW was seemingly going to turn a corner a year later, with MJF in the lead role. And then came the fucking Adam Cole storyline. All In London was an incredible moment for the company, but we need to all accept that this match, despite headlining, had zero impact on the consumer pull. Having this major moment be headlined by two guys who's build was "they're friends, but who will turn!?" wasted the momentum. Adam Cole also deciding he no longer needs to look like an athlete didn't help. And that story gateway to the Devil storyline, which ... yeah. Again, AEW hasn't recovered.

I wasn't a fan of the storyline either, but that's one instance where I can accept the fan response/ratings etc. made it worthwhile.

Personally I thought the entire thing was just a re-run of MJF/Punk with elements of MJF/Sammy thrown in. However the fans were getting into it, they ate up all the skits, goofy in-ring shtick and while I thought it was dumb to book a match where you don't want to see them actually fight it was easily the most popular thing on the show.

The problem was they got too greedy and when they put the ROH Tag Titles on Cole/MJF and had them defend them on PPV over MJF defending the world title, it ate into MJF's popularity. Then like you pointed out, the Devil storyline was a massive flop, fans didn't want to see Cole turn on MJF and the company really lost it's way with Samoa Joe essentially out of nowhere becoming the world champion. Clearly the plan was always Cole, but that should have been shelved after committing to the MJF/Cole stuff.

I think we can agree to disagree on Cody. I think that he may not have clicked with a vocal portion of the audience, but he was also the one who realized TV promotions can't have feuds via a comedy YouTube show.

I think the title stip was a mistake, because Cody was *THE* babyface for the first 18 months, but I also understood the motivation to not "make himself champion." Bit of a lose-lose, in that regard.

The crowd reaction for MJF/Cole was ... decent. I'm not sure it was enough to go with it the way they did, but also ... it was this run where attendance started declining and ratings started hovering in the 800s vs. the 900s (or even touching a million). So again, do you trust the crowd cheering or the abundance of people tuning out as the barometer for success?