Sept 3, 2024 4:13:18 GMT KJ said:

I think we can agree to disagree on Cody. I think that he may not have clicked with a vocal portion of the audience, but he was also the one who realized TV promotions can't have feuds via a comedy YouTube show.

I think what threw fans is that Cody started appearing on Sammy's vlog and would weave a lot of that into the on-screen product, hence the whole Cody-verse stuff as he had nothing to do with the Elite after 2020.

My whole thing with Cody, is that he wasn't a main eventer anymore. Like you said, he found himself in a lose/lose, but it was ultimately in everyone's best interest if he stuck himself in the title picture. If only to give AEW some sense of form and hierarchy, because a lot of wins and losses don't have the weight behind them that they should.

Sept 3, 2024 4:13:18 GMT KJ said:

The crowd reaction for MJF/Cole was ... decent. I'm not sure it was enough to go with it the way they did, but also ... it was this run where attendance started declining and ratings started hovering in the 800s vs. the 900s (or even touching a million). So again, do you trust the crowd cheering or the abundance of people tuning out as the barometer for success?

It was easily the most over part of the show and one of the few ratings draws they had, so I can understand prolonging the angle. The issue was the follow through and it seemed like Tony was hell-bent on sticking with the MJF --> Cole title change even when the fans clearly didn't want it. Ratings had been hemorrhaging for months prior and a lot of that had to do with the fall-out of Punk and also the Blackpool Combat Club.

Sept 3, 2024 4:37:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Sept 3, 2024 4:13:18 GMT KJ said:

I think we can agree to disagree on Cody. I think that he may not have clicked with a vocal portion of the audience, but he was also the one who realized TV promotions can't have feuds via a comedy YouTube show.

I think what threw fans is that Cody started appearing on Sammy's vlog and would weave a lot of that into the on-screen product, hence the whole Cody-verse stuff as he had nothing to do with the Elite after 2020.

My whole thing with Cody, is that he wasn't a main eventer anymore. Like you said, he found himself in a lose/lose, but it was ultimately in everyone's best interest if he stuck himself in the title picture. If only to give AEW some sense of form and hierarchy, because a lot of wins and losses don't have the weight behind them that they should.

Sept 3, 2024 4:13:18 GMT KJ said:

The crowd reaction for MJF/Cole was ... decent. I'm not sure it was enough to go with it the way they did, but also ... it was this run where attendance started declining and ratings started hovering in the 800s vs. the 900s (or even touching a million). So again, do you trust the crowd cheering or the abundance of people tuning out as the barometer for success?

It was easily the most over part of the show and one of the few ratings draws they had, so I can understand prolonging the angle. The issue was the follow through and it seemed like Tony was hell-bent on sticking with the MJF --> Cole title change even when the fans clearly didn't want it. Ratings had been hemorrhaging for months prior and a lot of that had to do with the fall-out of Punk and also the Blackpool Combat Club.

AEW was still drawing a million after Brawl Out, and still hitting 900K semi-frequently.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence after the MJF/Cole story started in July, AEW only hit 900K three times for the rest of the year. They’d hit +900K nine times the first half of the year. Of note, AEW scored over 900K viewers 11 times from Sept 7 (first Dynamite post-All Out) through the end of 2022, four of which were over 1MM. The fans didn’t tune out in droves post-Punk; that came in 2023 on the back of TONS of bad booking, leading up to the summer that ruined the fed.

So yes, AEW was already in a backslide during Cole/MJF. But my entire point is their centerpiece feud did nothing to slow it, and I would say accelerated it.

There have been 32 Dynamites this year:

1MM viewers = 0
900K viewers =0
800K viewers = 8 (last on April 10)
700K viewers = 13
600K viewers = 10 (9 of the last 13 weeks)
500K viewers = 1 (included in the above 600K stat)

The slide is very, very real. I firmly believe that’s a reflection of booking and overall interest.

MJF babyface turn and Cole bromance really just reminded me of the ill-advised Austin heel turn where he, ultimately, ended up in segments playing acoustic guitar and singing for Mr. McMahon, trying cowboys hats on with the boss, etc. Some of that content was actually hilarious, but it was simultaneously the completely wrong decision.

Sept 3, 2024 5:20:17 GMT sting said:

MJF babyface turn and Cole bromance really just reminded me of the ill-advised Austin heel turn where he, ultimately, ended up in segments playing acoustic guitar and singing for Mr. McMahon, trying cowboys hats on with the boss, etc. Some of that content was actually hilarious, but it was simultaneously the completely wrong decision.

Great fucking comparison.

And despite (what I hear was) a great match with Osprey, MJF since he returned is just … dead. His character feels so lifeless. The hottest young star in wrestling is rocking an out-of-nowhere “Pro America” gimmick to get cheap heat in the UK. Wanna bet he does nothing with that gimmick moving forward?

I don't think MJF has much in the way of dance partners. I personally didn't take much note of him before his program with Punk, and that is more his opponents' fault than his. When MJF was going off on Pillman Jr. around the time Dark Side of the Ring was airing its episodes on his father, he took some really deep and personal cuts, but Pillman never bowed up to him; the promo buried him instead of making him. That's a producer being asleep at the wheel ... This should have turned into a great program.

I'm sure the dude's back hurts from trying to carry the company, but that is usually his predicament.

... They whiffed on an easy softball with Mark Briscoe. MJF was champ at the time. Mark would have been the ultimate white meat babyface in his quest to do his tragically passed brother proud, up against a scumbag heel who can never sink low enough, on the stick or in a fight ...

Sept 3, 2024 5:06:31 GMT KJ said:

Sept 3, 2024 4:37:20 GMT Big Pete said:

I think what threw fans is that Cody started appearing on Sammy's vlog and would weave a lot of that into the on-screen product, hence the whole Cody-verse stuff as he had nothing to do with the Elite after 2020.

My whole thing with Cody, is that he wasn't a main eventer anymore. Like you said, he found himself in a lose/lose, but it was ultimately in everyone's best interest if he stuck himself in the title picture. If only to give AEW some sense of form and hierarchy, because a lot of wins and losses don't have the weight behind them that they should.

It was easily the most over part of the show and one of the few ratings draws they had, so I can understand prolonging the angle. The issue was the follow through and it seemed like Tony was hell-bent on sticking with the MJF --> Cole title change even when the fans clearly didn't want it. Ratings had been hemorrhaging for months prior and a lot of that had to do with the fall-out of Punk and also the Blackpool Combat Club.

AEW was still drawing a million after Brawl Out, and still hitting 900K semi-frequently.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence after the MJF/Cole story started in July, AEW only hit 900K three times for the rest of the year. They’d hit +900K nine times the first half of the year. Of note, AEW scored over 900K viewers 11 times from Sept 7 (first Dynamite post-All Out) through the end of 2022, four of which were over 1MM. The fans didn’t tune out in droves post-Punk; that came in 2023 on the back of TONS of bad booking, leading up to the summer that ruined the fed.

So yes, AEW was already in a backslide during Cole/MJF. But my entire point is their centerpiece feud did nothing to slow it, and I would say accelerated it.

The feud started at the beginning of June and was one of the few rivalries that had a positive impact on ratings. Unfortunately for AEW, it was just one quarter of the show and it had to split time with all the other angles that AEW tries to give equal footing too. So the Elite/BCC which wasn't doing so hot, did little to fix things. Then on top of that, Collision premiered around that time, resulting in a soft brand split, which saw AEW dilute their talent roster so it became difficult to format a strong show from top to bottom. Dynamite was no longer the one stop destination, now fans had another two hour show to get their fix.

Anyways, I thought the angle was completely fine until they got too caught up in the ROH Tag Titles. That put a stigma on MJF and you started to see his quarters beginning to tank. I agree that overall the storyline was a major bust and another black eye. However at the time, it was an example where things were being justified because of ratings and fan response by AEW fans who were lapping it up. So, they're trying to have it both ways.

Still, you made the point that AEW were turning a corner with MJF. Do you mean they were looking to? Or do you think they actually were? Because ratings had essentially been going down even with him on top prior to him on top. In fact the last episode where they drew a million, I remember it wasn't anything special with Evil Uno/Moxley as the main event and a tag team battle royale. MJF was barely on the show from memory, but the fans just happened to be in the mood for it.

Again, I think they had one angle that would have drawn ratings, fans were still holding on for it, but when it became clear that they were never going to do business and book Punk/Elite and Punk was out the door, the fans continued to shuffle out alongside him. When they actually aired what he was fired over, it only made them look worse and ultimately more fans tuned out in droves.

The hottest young star in wrestling is rocking an out-of-nowhere “Pro America” gimmick to get cheap heat in the UK. Wanna bet he does nothing with that gimmick moving forward?

Mate, he already denounced America on the latest episode of Dynamite. :lol:

It was a one and done gimmick (thank god) and now he's feuding with Garcia.

Ratings were holding solid in his first months, including multiple 1MM editions.

Quarter hours mean nothing to me, BTW. I think there’s too much noise.

Sept 3, 2024 5:12:28 GMT KJ said:

There have been 32 Dynamites this year:

1MM viewers = 0
900K viewers =0
800K viewers = 8 (last on April 10)
700K viewers = 13
600K viewers = 10 (9 of the last 13 weeks)
500K viewers = 1 (included in the above 600K stat)

The slide is very, very real. I firmly believe that’s a reflection of booking and overall interest.

And that's a point many AEW fanboys won't accept. The decline is quick.

It isn't over a decade, where you can associate a change in viewer habits or increase in competition. It's over a short few years. And in many cases, there's a 10% or more drop over just a few months.

So, if the product is so good or the quality of the show is a non-issue, why are fans tuning out?

Is it... and bare with me here, is it a case of the show never being good at all. However it got the attention of a lot of fans because WWE was trash for along time, and with AEW being new, people wanted to watch an alternative to WWE and gave it a chance? And then slowly, 1 by 1... people tuned out.

It seems so obvious why the show isn't great. And it seems so obvious how to fix it. But for whatever reason, TK and Co. simply play on. Again, a point I made 5 years ago - they'll surround themselves with suck-ups and ass-kissers who will tell them how great they are, ( because this is the greatest opportunity for a never-waser to get a full time gig in wrestling ) and it will make them delusional.

Sept 3, 2024 6:25:41 GMT KJ said:

Ratings were holding solid in his first months, including multiple 1MM editions.

Quarter hours mean nothing to me, BTW. I think there’s too much noise.

Since AEW books itself more as an ensemble piece, the quarter hours are more relevant than ever.

There were two million+, and that was well down on what they were doing around All Out 2022. I don't see any indication that they were turning a corner before the 'Better Than You BayBay' angle. In fact, after Revolution MJF wasn't the focal point of the company. Look at what actually main evented the two PPVs prior to All In.

MJF was stale as a heel. The babyface turn was needed. Adam Cole getting hurt killed everything.

Sept 3, 2024 7:34:07 GMT Big Pete said:

Sept 3, 2024 6:25:41 GMT KJ said:

Ratings were holding solid in his first months, including multiple 1MM editions.

Quarter hours mean nothing to me, BTW. I think there’s too much noise.

Since AEW books itself more as an ensemble piece, the quarter hours are more relevant than ever.

There were two million+, and that was well down on what they were doing around All Out 2022. I don't see any indication that they were turning a corner before the 'Better Than You BayBay' angle. In fact, after Revolution MJF wasn't the focal point of the company. Look at what actually main evented the two PPVs prior to All In.

I didn’t expand much (I was tired), but what I meant was the show is booked too scattershot (ie - people are never in consistent placement on the card), that I don’t think quarter hours mean much. The formatting is all over the place, and I don’t believe droves of people are clicking over when MJF was on-screen.

Sept 3, 2024 15:34:03 GMT Ed said:

MJF was stale as a heel. The babyface turn was needed. Adam Cole getting hurt killed everything.

He was a bad face and he’s already stale as a heel.

It’s almost like MJF being the next big thing is the greatest con ever committed by Punk and Cody.

Sept 3, 2024 16:30:32 GMT KJ said:

Sept 3, 2024 15:34:03 GMT Ed said:

MJF was stale as a heel. The babyface turn was needed. Adam Cole getting hurt killed everything.

He was a bad face and he’s already stale as a heel.

It’s almost like MJF being the next big thing is the greatest con ever committed by Punk and Cody.

MJF has ever tool to be that next big thing, but what he doesn't have is a good filter.

You can take every bit of criticism of Cody's run in AEW, and then compare it to his success in WWE and the difference is someone like Triple H filtering all that bullshit out, in turn telling him when to turn it down, and when to turn it up, etc.

MJF, is just cringe all the time. The constant condescending tone and the [insert naughty words here] type personality. It feels less edgy a lot of the time and more immature if anything.

And this is where TK, or whoever is producing his segments is failing by not reigning in all his tendencies and his bullshit.

It's a common theme in AEW - Jericho is running wild, and no one has got the balls to produce him or maybe isn't willing to admit how terrible he is. Whether it's this gimmick or his next gimmick, or the one after that, or whatever he's doing in a years time 4 times removed from The Learning Tree crap. The Bucks.. sure, they like to be hated but there's heat ( Dom ) and then there's being two X-Pacs all year round.

But when TK says there's 30 odd people on his creative team - I'm sure he's counting all the wrestlers who do whatever they want.

Sept 3, 2024 19:18:26 GMT NATH45 said:

MJF, is just cringe all the time. The constant condescending tone and the [insert naughty words here] type personality. It feels less edgy a lot of the time and more immature if anything.

I agree. He has so much potential, but he has rarely been truly great. The CM Punk feud was his best work, and I don't think it was an accident, considering Punk was on the other end. Aspects of the Wardlow feud were great too but they really dropped the ball on that.

Sept 3, 2024 19:18:26 GMT NATH45 said:

The Bucks.. sure, they like to be hated but there's heat ( Dom ) and then there's being two X-Pacs all year round.

To be fair, it's hard to be a true heel in front of such a smarky crowd. They are booing as part of the routine, but secretly they want to cheer because everyone is a great worker. I'd argue it's much easier in WWE with a family-centric audience. The new version of The Elite was on paper pretty good attempt to be a "true heel" faction but then they make Okada a lovable dickhead with catchphrases and spots that pop the crowd and it all falls a bit flat.

Not to mention the whole flimsy morality that Pete alluded to with Swerve/Danielson and Swerve/Hangman.

It wouldn't be an Emperor post if I didn't tie in New Japan somehow, and this point is why I have some level of respect for the concept of House of Torture. They are far and away the most successful "smark heel" act of the past 5-10 years. They deliberately wrestle awful matches with stupid levels of intelligence-insulting shenanigans, every single match. Completely shameless, not a hint of subtlety, they never give an inch on the gimmick. That's why it works. The crowd hates them but they pay to see them get their ass kicked. And it's an incredibly easy way to get a babyface over, having them overcome the HoT bullshit. Granted, I skip 95% of their work, but those moments where the babyface gets one over on the whole group are truly glorious.

Sept 3, 2024 16:30:02 GMT KJ said:

Sept 3, 2024 7:34:07 GMT Big Pete said:

Since AEW books itself more as an ensemble piece, the quarter hours are more relevant than ever.

There were two million+, and that was well down on what they were doing around All Out 2022. I don't see any indication that they were turning a corner before the 'Better Than You BayBay' angle. In fact, after Revolution MJF wasn't the focal point of the company. Look at what actually main evented the two PPVs prior to All In.

I didn’t expand much (I was tired), but what I meant was the show is booked too scattershot (ie - people are never in consistent placement on the card), that I don’t think quarter hours mean much. The formatting is all over the place, and I don’t believe droves of people are clicking over when MJF was on-screen.

If it was a once off, sure, but this was pretty consistent trend that happened on both Dynamite and Collision. I still remember Meltzer buzzing over MJF out-drawing Punk on his own show around that time.

Plus, typically Dynamite blows it's load early, so there's typically a big drop-off in the second hour when fans realise all the talent they want to see have already done their thing. That was one thing about the Collision number, that the ratings were generally consistent in each quarter because they'd build to the main event through out the show.

Sept 4, 2024 0:42:34 GMT Big Pete said:

Sept 3, 2024 16:30:02 GMT KJ said:

I didn’t expand much (I was tired), but what I meant was the show is booked too scattershot (ie - people are never in consistent placement on the card), that I don’t think quarter hours mean much. The formatting is all over the place, and I don’t believe droves of people are clicking over when MJF was on-screen.

If it was a once off, sure, but this was pretty consistent trend that happened on both Dynamite and Collision. I still remember Meltzer buzzing over MJF out-drawing Punk on his own show around that time.

Plus, typically Dynamite blows it's load early, so there's typically a big drop-off in the second hour when fans realise all the talent they want to see have already done their thing. That was one thing about the Collision number, that the ratings were generally consistent in each quarter because they'd build to the main event through out the show.

Fair enough. I’ll concede in summer it was clicking.

" The All In Turnstile numbers are in and AEW's Wrestlemania had an official attendance of 46,476.

Down 36% from last year's official number. Likely due to a hot Red Dwarf marathon on Dave, and an EPL replay that same night which drew 20 Million viewers each - Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer. "

Sept 4, 2024 1:57:07 GMT NATH45 said:

" The All In Turnstile numbers are in and AEW's Wrestlemania had an official attendance of 46,476.

Down 36% from last year's official number. Likely due to a hot Red Dwarf marathon on Dave, and an EPL replay that same night which drew 20 Million viewers each - Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer. "

“Selling fifty thousand tickets to a show is bad, actually.”

" The Friday, August 30 episode of AEW Rampage averaged 218,000 viewers on TNT, down 24.8 percent from the previous week. It’s the second-lowest viewership total in the history of the show, beating only the August 2 episode that went head-to-head with Olympics coverage.

Rampage drew a 0.07 rating in the 18-49 demo. That’s down 30 percent from last week and ties the lowest rating the show has ever done in that category.

There was no major sports competition on the night, so no obvious reason for the low numbers aside from possibly the Labor Day holiday weekend.

As compared to the same week in 2023, Rampage’s overall viewership was down 41.4 percent while its 18-49 rating was down 36.4 percent. "

F4Wonline.com

Sept 4, 2024 4:35:52 GMT RT said:

Sept 4, 2024 1:57:07 GMT NATH45 said:

" The All In Turnstile numbers are in and AEW's Wrestlemania had an official attendance of 46,476.

Down 36% from last year's official number. Likely due to a hot Red Dwarf marathon on Dave, and an EPL replay that same night which drew 20 Million viewers each - Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer. "

“Selling fifty thousand tickets to a show is bad, actually.”

50K tickets is incredible.

But down nearly 40% is why they’re smart in not running Wembley for a third year.

Sept 4, 2024 20:12:44 GMT KJ said:

Sept 4, 2024 4:35:52 GMT RT said:

“Selling fifty thousand tickets to a show is bad, actually.”

50K tickets is incredible.

But down nearly 40% is why they’re smart in not running Wembley for a third year.

I think it's been revised to about 40,800. Regardless... big.

But they'd be better off shopping the event around similar to Wrestlemania and making it a tourism opportunity for cities.

If WM did the same stadium in a consecutive year and the attendance dropped that much, it'd probably be seen as a negative, to be fair.

It be fair.

Is Dave really trying to justify that a TV marathon on a channel famed for repeats is a part of why live attendance is down? He would’ve been fine just sticking with the football as the reason.

Sept 4, 2024 23:45:09 GMT sting said:

If WM did the same stadium in a consecutive year and the attendance dropped that much, it'd probably be seen as a negative, to be fair.

That's a good point.

Sept 5, 2024 21:33:11 GMT kingoftheworld said:

Is Dave really trying to justify that a TV marathon on a channel famed for repeats is a part of why live attendance is down? He would’ve been fine just sticking with the football as the reason.

No, nath was making a joke.

I thought AEW had to alter their set up because of an upcoming Taylor Swift concert which ended up impacting the number of seats they had available.

Sept 5, 2024 22:01:32 GMT RT said:

Sept 4, 2024 23:45:09 GMT sting said:

If WM did the same stadium in a consecutive year and the attendance dropped that much, it'd probably be seen as a negative, to be fair.

That's a good point.

Sept 5, 2024 21:33:11 GMT kingoftheworld said:

Is Dave really trying to justify that a TV marathon on a channel famed for repeats is a part of why live attendance is down? He would’ve been fine just sticking with the football as the reason.

No, nath was making a joke.

Ok now I feel dumb for being too high to read it all properly

Also not a football fan which is why 20 milly on a EPL repeat didn’t even register properly until now lol

Sept 5, 2024 21:33:11 GMT kingoftheworld said:

Is Dave really trying to justify that a TV marathon on a channel famed for repeats is a part of why live attendance is down? He would’ve been fine just sticking with the football as the reason.

Attendance is down because Americans are coming on HARD TIMES.  Attendance on most things are down outside of the top music acts and WWE.  But as rent and energy bills in the US creep up sporting and entertainment attendance drops.  Not exciting enough for headlines, so these clickbait "journalists" need to come up with something else than basic macroeconomics.  

Sept 5, 2024 23:05:50 GMT c said:

Sept 5, 2024 21:33:11 GMT kingoftheworld said:

Is Dave really trying to justify that a TV marathon on a channel famed for repeats is a part of why live attendance is down? He would’ve been fine just sticking with the football as the reason.

Attendance is down because Americans are coming on HARD TIMES.  Attendance on most things are down outside of the top music acts and WWE.  But as rent and energy bills in the US creep up sporting and entertainment attendance drops.  Not exciting enough for headlines, so these clickbait "journalists" need to come up with something else than basic macroeconomics.  

There’s usually an expected counterbalance to this, c.

Attendance goes down, viewership goes up.

Both are down.