The US Open just announced record attendance.

MLB’s attendance is up in 2024 compared to 2023.

College football’s biggest stadiums are packing 90,000+ sold out crowds.

WWE is having their best attendance in years.

Sept 5, 2024 22:10:18 GMT @ts said:

I thought AEW had to alter their set up because of an upcoming Taylor Swift concert which ended up impacting the number of seats they had available.

Yes this is true but being ignored. The max they could do was something like 52k because of the Taylor Swift concert equipment that wouldn’t be taken down in time, and that AEW was allowed to use.

They also very nearly sold out, but attendance is always lower than number of tickets sold because of bots, scalpers, etc. Last year they kept saying they had the biggest gate ever because they did, almost everyone that bought a ticket showed up. This year was less so and was expected.

The drop in attendance was expected but they still made their money, still sold almost all their tickets, still put on a tremendous show, and are making the right decision to let London cool off for two years before going back. The complaints are from the usual suspects just trying to find negatives every time AEW does something good.

Aren’t AEW fans supposed to be more wealthy than WWE fans?

Funkos ain't gonna pay for themselves.

Sept 6, 2024 1:27:13 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Aren’t AEW fans supposed to be more wealthy than WWE fans?

Oh, and smarter.

---

Viewership and ratings information for AEW Dynamite on September 4.

PWTorch reports that AEW Dynamite drew 660,000 viewers on September 4. This number is down from the 691,000 viewers the show drew on August 28th.

Wednesday's episode scored a 0.19 rating in the 18 to 49 demographic, down from the 0.22 demo rating from last Wednesday.

AEW Dynamite ranked fifth on cable behind Fox News, US Open on ESPN, and The Challenge on MTV.

RAW this week pretty much did the same number it did last year.

Cable TV subscriptions are being cut at unprecedented rates as well. The era of cable is over, less than 40% of US households still have cable, and that is expected to drop even lower before the year is up. Part of the reason why the obsession with ratings makes no sense. No one knows how many actually are watching the show as everyone that is using a VPN or just pirating streams are not counted period.

Numbers I saw for MLB is minor increase in average attendance from 2023 but still down several thousand from pre-pandemic peaks.

Explain RAW, Smackdown and NXT ratings remaining consistent compared with previous years.

Let's say the cable market is decreasing. With WWE programming remaining relatively consistent in terms of viewers 2023 v 2024, to offset the decline in subs, the quality of the program is ensuring a good number each week - balancing it all out, nicely. Hence why we don't see any substantial growth, despite the business being red hot.

For a supposedly smart man, to argue that " everything is awesome " when ratings are rapidly declining and attendance is struggling is idiotic. When people don't watch and people don't go to shows, that's a bad thing Champ, there's no argument against it.

Easy, look at the demographics of the WWE crowd closely. They skew old and young. So older people and their kids. Why the dem of WWE and AEW are not that much different but WWE slaughters AEW in terms of raw fans. And who are the people keeping cable? Mostly boomers and older gen X, the same people likely make up that older end of the WWE audience. Median age for WWE is 50, just as we see with cable viewers. This is also why the average WWE fan is getting older and older, once you cut the cord you no longer are counted, and the younger people cutting more.

I am not arguing everything is awesome, but I am arguing it is stupid to estimate the popularity of AEW by solely using cable numbers and in a vacuum voiding all mediators or context.

Sept 6, 2024 3:32:38 GMT c said:

Cable TV subscriptions are being cut at unprecedented rates as well. The era of cable is over, less than 40% of US households still have cable, and that is expected to drop even lower before the year is up. Part of the reason why the obsession with ratings makes no sense. No one knows how many actually are watching the show as everyone that is using a VPN or just pirating streams are not counted period.

Numbers I saw for MLB is minor increase in average attendance from 2023 but still down several thousand from pre-pandemic peaks.

AEW YouTube metrics have been down as well.

This is where we always get stuck: every tangible metric of performance is down. It's not one or two. It's not just TV.

The entire company is down in all areas we have any insight or tracking on.

Sure, there are "reasons." One of the reasons, without question, is that less people are consuming the AEW product than they did before.

Sept 6, 2024 3:51:50 GMT c said:

Easy, look at the demographics of the WWE crowd closely. They skew old and young. So older people and their kids. Why the dem of WWE and AEW are not that much different but WWE slaughters AEW in terms of raw fans. And who are the people keeping cable? Mostly boomers and older gen X, the same people likely make up that older end of the WWE audience. Median age for WWE is 50, just as we see with cable viewers. This is also why the average WWE fan is getting older and older, once you cut the cord you no longer are counted, and the younger people cutting more.

I am not arguing everything is awesome, but I am arguing it is stupid to estimate the popularity of AEW by solely using cable numbers and in a vacuum voiding all mediators or context.

WWE is drawing 2-3X the ratings of the 18-49 demo than AEW.

That's not total viewership, mind you. That's the share of that audience watching.

So no, I don't accept that WWE is outperforming AEW because the base is just parents and kids.

Sept 6, 2024 3:51:50 GMT c said:

I am not arguing everything is awesome, but I am arguing it is stupid to estimate the popularity of AEW by solely using cable numbers and in a vacuum voiding all mediators or context.

Which metric should we use?

Thoughts and prayers?

Sept 6, 2024 6:23:05 GMT NATH45 said:

Sept 6, 2024 3:51:50 GMT c said:

I am not arguing everything is awesome, but I am arguing it is stupid to estimate the popularity of AEW by solely using cable numbers and in a vacuum voiding all mediators or context.

Which metric should we use?

Thoughts and prayers?

***** matches.

Sept 6, 2024 6:43:06 GMT KJ said:

Sept 6, 2024 6:23:05 GMT NATH45 said:

Which metric should we use?

Thoughts and prayers?

***** matches.

Meltzer Bucks.

Metric ideally that should be used is total viewers, not using only the US viewers that are watching on cable and projecting to worldwide views as is the case right now. Ratings being used that way we are now only make sense if you simply think no one else matters outside of Americans. And you are not going to accurate project US watch numbers to the worldwide numbers by just assuming every other country has the same watch patterns.

But estimating total viewers is all hard, and our "network journalists" do not care to. Much easier to just use US numbers only, pretend AEW does not air outside of the US, then claim they are dying and precede to fanbook their comeback for content.

And frankly the only metric I care about is how much I like the matches I am watching.  It is weird focusing more on the numbers of cable fans or live gates over the enjoyment you get from the show.  And AEW been on a roll the last few weeks and is going into a super hot PPV this weekend that should produce their single best match yet as Swerve basically introduces AEW to a Cage of Death match.

The one true metric is Cagematch ratings.

Okay, so the only metric you think is valuable is a metric no one has access too?

When we talk international, is now a good time to rehash the multiple international partners that dropped AEW TV over the last year?

Sept 6, 2024 14:40:09 GMT KJ said:

Okay, so the only metric you think is valuable is a metric no one has access to?

When we talk international, is now a good time to rehash the multiple international partners that dropped AEW TV over the last year?

Sept 6, 2024 12:50:25 GMT c said:

Metric ideally that should be used is total viewers, not using only the US viewers that are watching on cable and projecting to worldwide views as is the case right now. Ratings being used that way we are now only make sense if you simply think no one else matters outside of Americans. And you are not going to accurate project US watch numbers to the worldwide numbers by just assuming every other country has the same watch patterns.

But estimating total viewers is all hard, and our "network journalists" do not care to. Much easier to just use US numbers only, pretend AEW does not air outside of the US, then claim they are dying and precede to fanbook their comeback for content.

And frankly the only metric I care about is how much I like the matches I am watching.  It is weird focusing more on the numbers of cable fans or live gates over the enjoyment you get from the show.  And AEW been on a roll the last few weeks and is going into a super hot PPV this weekend that should produce their single best match yet as Swerve basically introduces AEW to a Cage of Death match.

It's only " weird " because you haven't got a leg to stand on in this debate. 

Half the audience has left over 2 years and the arenas are 3/4 empty. That's not OK. Oh, " But the wrestling is good! " ... come on man, most of it isn't. And that's being fair and balanced. The entire industry - wrestlers, former promotors, insiders, podcasters - are talking about these metrics, because it is a reflection of how people feel about the product. It started off strong, Dynamite did some big numbers, but it's lost over half it's audience due to primarily the quality of the programming. Other factors include some poor leadership and lack of self awareness, and silly comments from TK , an immature culture within the company that has been put on display for the world to see multiple times ( excluding the CM Punk situation ) and... and you may not believe this... AEW and it's core fanbase are as equally responsible for the  " tribalism " as anyone else. 

You can't make the cord cutting argument anymore because it's been said time and time again that AEW's recent drop in ratings has far exceeded the rate at which people are cancelling their cable subscriptions. It's something like 20% to 8 or 9%. Like it's over double the rate.

The hard truth is fans tuned out when CM Punk left and the storylines mostly became stale. Booking bangers with no story behind them isn't working, and honestly it never did. AEW stayed hot longer than people expected because of things like major WWE stars jumping ship and CM Punk returning to wrestling. Had it not been for that, this would have happened 2-3 years ago when the new car smell wore off.

The concerns about booking and presentation have been there from the beginning but were easy to ignore when you were flirting with 1 million viewers every week. Now they are in a position where they should have done better at those things sooner, and are probably going to get dominated by NXT when they go head to head in a couple weeks. It doesn't matter what the excuses are, that is a bad spot to be in.

AEW lost 200k people in a year but 44 million cut cable. If even 1 out of 200 people that cut cabled watched AEW that explain the drop alone.

And just people have zero hard numbers on Tony's booking impact on ratings or presentation impact on ratings, there is way to prove that AEW fans cut the cord or not because wrestling journalism is utter shit and does not care.

Instead we use an unreliable metrics in the Nielsen ratings that most networks these days ignore since Nielsen got tagged fudging the numbers during the pandemic simply because they are easy to get and wrestling fans can use them to tear down shit, validity be damned.

Sept 6, 2024 15:29:17 GMT RT said:

You can't make the cord cutting argument anymore because it's been said time and time again that AEW's recent drop in ratings has far exceeded the rate at which people are cancelling their cable subscriptions. It's something like 20% to 8 or 9%. Like it's over double the rate.

The hard truth is fans tuned out when CM Punk left and the storylines mostly became stale. Booking bangers with no story behind them isn't working, and honestly it never did. AEW stayed hot longer than people expected because of things like major WWE stars jumping ship and CM Punk returning to wrestling. Had it not been for that, this would have happened 2-3 years ago when the new car smell wore off.

The concerns about booking and presentation have been there from the beginning but were easy to ignore when you were flirting with 1 million viewers every week. Now they are in a position where they should have done better at those things sooner, and are probably going to get dominated by NXT when they go head to head in a couple weeks. It doesn't matter what the excuses are, that is a bad spot to be in.

100% correct.

It’s not just ratings signaling a lack of interest. Some avoid that point and explain it away, but across the street there’s a company that is red-hot thriving.

AEW is as cold as it’s ever been right now.

Sept 6, 2024 15:41:55 GMT c said:

AEW lost 200k people in a year but 44 million cut cable. If even 1 out of 200 people that cut cabled watched AEW that explain the drop alone.

And just people have zero hard numbers on Tony's booking impact on ratings or presentation impact on ratings, there is way to prove that AEW fans cut the cord or not because wrestling journalism is utter shit and does not care.

Instead we use an unreliable metrics in the Nielsen ratings that most networks these days ignore since Nielsen got tagged fudging the numbers during the pandemic simply because they are easy to get and wrestling fans can use them to tear down shit, validity be damned.

TBS lost like 3MM cable subscribers last year, not 44MM.

(Source: www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Articles/2023/07/31/cable-net-distribution)

So no, we can’t assume 44MM homes stopped carrying TBS and that’s why the numbers are down.

44 million cut their entire cable package, not just lost TBS from their existing cable package.

evoca.tv/cord-cutting-statistics/

And sure WWE is doing fine, but AEW is not WWE and the fans are clearly demographically different.  

It also still stands it is stupid to estimate the total number of people who watch AEW solely off of US cable viewers.  How many who went to All In do you do think show up on the Neilson numbers?  Or will be at the Grand Slam?  But people act like only the people who watch via Neilson box are watching the show.

The grand irony is, no one even knows if the Neilson data is accurate anymore.  People just assume post accreditation scandal they are still able to provide accurate numbers despite not doing anything to adjust to a changing market that more commonly uses devices they are not part of.   Like anyone here have Neilson box?  Or even know someone with a box?  Only reasons wrestling fans cling to these numbers is they are the sole way they have to argue that one fed is better than another and will continue to do so no matter how invalid that arguments is.  There is a reason show biz daily said you all were weird as hell for obsessing over one number that few use anymore.

Sept 6, 2024 19:24:21 GMT c said:

44 million cut their entire cable package, not just lost TBS from their existing cable package.

evoca.tv/cord-cutting-statistics/

And sure WWE is doing fine, but AEW is not WWE and the fans are clearly demographically different.  

It also still stands it is stupid to estimate the total number of people who watch AEW solely off of US cable viewers.  How many who went to All In do you do think show up on the Neilson numbers?  Or will be at the Grand Slam?  But people act like only the people who watch via Neilson box are watching the show.

The grand irony is, no one even knows if the Neilson data is accurate anymore.  People just assume post accreditation scandal they are still able to provide accurate numbers despite not doing anything to adjust to a changing market that more commonly uses devices they are not part of.   Like anyone here have Neilson box?  Or even know someone with a box?  Only reasons wrestling fans cling to these numbers is they are the sole way they have to argue that one fed is better than another and will continue to do so no matter how invalid that arguments is.  There is a reason show biz daily said you all were weird as hell for obsessing over one number that few use anymore.

Are they different audiences? Because WWE is garnering a higher share of what you said were AEW’s audience than what AEW is garnering.

So WWE has more 18-49 viewers watching its shows - both absolute qty and % of total viewers - every week.

Also, you’re as bad as Kid is in the politics forum.

No one here is pointing to *just* ratings.

It’s ratings, attendance, social engagement, PPV Buys, international TV deals (since you want to move this to global goalposts), etc.

I honestly can’t think of one engagement metric where AEW is growing.

Sept 6, 2024 19:24:21 GMT c said:

44 million cut their entire cable package, not just lost TBS from their existing cable package.

evoca.tv/cord-cutting-statistics/

And sure WWE is doing fine, but AEW is not WWE and the fans are clearly demographically different.  

It also still stands it is stupid to estimate the total number of people who watch AEW solely off of US cable viewers.  How many who went to All In do you do think show up on the Neilson numbers?  Or will be at the Grand Slam?  But people act like only the people who watch via Neilson box are watching the show.

The grand irony is, no one even knows if the Neilson data is accurate anymore.  People just assume post accreditation scandal they are still able to provide accurate numbers despite not doing anything to adjust to a changing market that more commonly uses devices they are not part of.   Like anyone here have Neilson box?  Or even know someone with a box?  Only reasons wrestling fans cling to these numbers is they are the sole way they have to argue that one fed is better than another and will continue to do so no matter how invalid that arguments is.  There is a reason show biz daily said you all were weird as hell for obsessing over one number that few use anymore.

I just looked at your link.

44MM isn’t the total change 2023-2024; that’s the accruing estimated number of households over a five year period from 2019-2024.

My numbers (from SBJ) were total subscribers lost for TBS; not a subset of people that dropped just TBS. The channel’s Total US subscribers dropped 3.067 million. The cumulative households with cable/satellite/OTT went from 78.889MM to 75.783MM in total.

That is not what I am seeing. I am seeing 58 million for 2023 have cable. More may have other shit but for Neilson ratings those do not matter.

www.statista.com/statistics/251268/number-of-pay-tv-households-in-the-us/

That said all the numbers stuff is messy as fuck and like the actual fans watching AEW internationally, no one seems to know the current US cable numbers as I see a range from 80 mil to 40 mil based on the site, even if just looking at 2023 figures.

But we know as the AEW ratings tanked people cut cords at record numbers.  Therefore a mediating effect on the rating decline will be cable subscribers, and once that is in any regression equation, quality of the program will matter little after.  Which is likely why WBD and Tony are not using Neilson rating when they have internally international ones that are not free to access and generally seen as more valid.  And these would matter and solve this, but I for one am not throwing down the cash for access to the other groups datasets.

Why would WBD care about AEW’s international performance when they don’t distribute AEW internationally?

Sept 6, 2024 21:30:24 GMT c said:

That is not what I am seeing. I am seeing 58 million for 2023 have cable. More may have other shit but for Neilson ratings those do not matter.

www.statista.com/statistics/251268/number-of-pay-tv-households-in-the-us/

That said all the numbers stuff is messy as fuck and like the actual fans watching AEW internationally, no one seems to know the current US cable numbers as I see a range from 80 mil to 40 mil based on the site, even if just looking at 2023 figures.

But we know as the AEW ratings tanked people cut cords at record numbers.  Therefore a mediating effect on the rating decline will be cable subscribers, and once that is in any regression equation, quality of the program will matter little after.  Which is likely why WBD and Tony are not using Neilson rating when they have internally international ones that are not free to access and generally seen as more valid.  And these would matter and solve this, but I for one am not throwing down the cash for access to the other groups datasets.

You’re looking at just traditional TV; SBJ includes OTT streaming like Sling or YouTube TV.

Over the last 12 months...

How many viewers has RAW lost?

How many viewers has Smackdown lost?

How many viewers has NXT lost?

Now, pulling your head out of your ass c... how many viewers has Dynamite lost?

How many viewers has Rampage lost?

How many viewers has Collision lost?

Sept 6, 2024 21:59:54 GMT NATH45 said:

Over the last 12 months...

How many viewers has RAW lost?

How many viewers has Smackdown lost?

How many viewers has NXT lost?

Now, pulling your head out of your ass c ... how many viewers has Dynamite lost?

How many viewers has Rampage lost?

How many viewers has Collision lost?

I'll do it for you. 

We can do along drawn out year long averages, but that would mean going through a lot of data. So I'll simply point to a 4 week period as a snap shot ( or as close as possible ) The data is 2023 v 2024.

We can go back further if you like, but as discussed, there is a decline in cable subs/increase in streaming options and increase competition overall for content and it would also be silly to compare today's market to 2015, or 2010.. for the sake of a playing with numbers. 

RAW 
August 14, 2023: 1.757 million viewers
August 21, 2023: 1.591 million viewers
August 28, 2023: 1.677 million viewers
September 4, 2023: 1.704 million viewers

August 12, 2024: 1.890 million viewers
August 19, 2024: 1.641 million viewers
August 26, 2024: 1.796 million viewers
September 2, 2024: 1.652 million viewers

That's pretty close. 

SMACKDOWN 
August 11, 2023: 2.097 million viewers
August 18, 2023: 2.094 million viewers
August 25, 2023: 2.647 million viewers
September 01, 2023: 2.443 million viewers

August 09, 2024: 2.269 million viewers 
August 16, 2024: 2.252 million viewers
August 23, 2024: 2.050 million viewers
August 30, 2024: 2.054 million viewers

That's also pretty close.

NXT
August 15, 2023: 680,000 viewers
August 22, 2023: 720,000 viewers
August 29, 2023: 614,000 viewers
September 05, 2023: 673,000 viewers

August 13, 2024: 617,000 viewers
August 20, 2024: 639,000 viewers
August 27, 2024: 615,000 viewers
September 3, 2024: 631,000 viewers

In the interest of being fair and balance the 4 week average here is 671,000 v 625,000. Which shows a -6.7% decrease in viewership vs 12 months ago.

DYNAMITE 
August 16, 2023: 874,000 viewers
August 23, 2023: 870,000 viewers
August 30, 2023: 871,000 viewers
September 06, 2023: 887,000 viewers ( 875

August 14, 2024: 703,000 viewers
August 21, 2024: 698,000 viewers
August 28, 2024: 691,000 viewers
September 4, 2024: 660,000 viewers ( 689

The average is 875,000 v 689,000. Which shows a -21% decrease in viewership vs 12 months ago. 

RAMPAGE
August 11, 2023: 398,000 viewers
August 18, 2023: 416,000 viewers
August 25, 2023: 348,000 viewers
September 01, 2023: 372,000 viewers

August 09, 2024: 219,000 viewers
August 16, 2024: 295,000 viewers
August 23, 2024: 290,000 viewers
August 30, 2024: 218,000 viewers

The average is 383,000 v 255,500. Which shows a -33% decrease in viewership vs 12 months ago.

COLLISION 
August 12, 2023: 476,000 viewers
August 19, 2023: 482,000 viewers
August 26, 2023: 552,000 viewers
September 02, 2023: 345,000 viewers

August 10, 2024: 370,000 viewers
August 17, 2024: 406,000 viewers
August 24, 2024: 442,000 viewers
August 31, 2024: 289,000 viewers

The average is 463,000 v 376,700. Which shows a -18% decrease in viewership vs 12 months ago.

OVERALL
The average combined viewership of all 3 AEW shows over this period in 2023 was 1.722 million viewers per week. 
The average combined viewership of all 3 AEW shows over this period in 2024 was 1.321 million viewers per week.

It shows a -23% decrease in viewership vs 12 months ago.

------------------------------

All of these numbers are readily available online, these were borrowed from Fightful.com. But I'm sure there is a mail room clerk working there who posted some offensive content 10 years ago, and we can use that to dismiss the credibility of the reporting. 






Oh, and you're welcome.