I'm not trying to make this political, but where are the statesmen or women of the world? Putin and Zelensky by response are dragging us towards WW3 and nobody is trying to broker an agreement, I mean there is zero discourse.

What year is this?

Putin announcing the annexing of eastern Ukraine formally and Zelensky requesting NATO membership is forcing us all to the brink.

Is there a way to rename this thread the Russia/Ukraine war? Instead of tensions?

Also, hmm I definitely feel like they'll be some hot war in Europe before 2022 is done.

Oct 1, 2022 2:08:30 GMT Jake said:

Is there a way to rename this thread the Russia/Ukraine war? Instead of tensions?

Also, hmm I definitely feel like they'll be some hot war in Europe before 2022 is done.

War definitely qualifies as tension though

Putin maintains he is not at war with the Ukraine but simply protecting the Russian people within the Ukraine. How do you negotiate the end of a war that the aggressor claims is not real and a fabrication of the Western media?

People watched Trump do his lying media stuff and did nothing, now others are copying it realizing how effective it is. You do not get to allow people to claim the media is all liars and claim an alternative reality then try to do peace talks that rely on a common shared reality.

Oct 1, 2022 4:52:01 GMT c said:

Putin maintains he is not at war with the Ukraine but simply protecting the Russian people within the Ukraine. How do you negotiate the end of a war that the aggressor claims is not real and a fabrication of the Western media?

People watched Trump do his lying media stuff and did nothing, now others are copying it realizing how effective it is. You do not get to allow people to claim the media is all liars and claim an alternative reality then try to do peace talks that rely on a common shared reality.

You heard it here first folks, the war in Ukraine is Trumps fault, along with Cancer and the common cold.

You want to negotiate the end of the war that only party will admit is real. For any statecraft to take place, Putin will need to admit that he is waging a war of aggression, which will be a political defeat for him.

But this is what the world kind of deserves for so many watching the rise of Trump and alternative facts and not stopping it. Now we are in a world were alternative facts must be given the same weight as real facts.  You want to know why there is no discourse this is why.  China cannot admit Putin is waging a war of aggression, and Putin claims he is simply defending Russian territory, which is his right.  Years of alternative facts in the US primed the world for alternative facts to being equal weight.  

Can't wait for Putin to use a nuke and claim it was launched from NATO.

Oct 1, 2022 6:38:52 GMT c said:

You want to negotiate the end of the war that only party will admit is real. For any statecraft to take place, Putin will need to admit that he is waging a war of aggression, which will be a political defeat for him.

But this is what the world kind of deserves for so many watching the rise of Trump and alternative facts and not stopping it. Now we are in a world were alternative facts must be given the same weight as real facts.  You want to know why there is no discourse this is why.  China cannot admit Putin is waging a war of aggression, and Putin claims he is simply defending Russian territory, which is his right.  Years of alternative facts in the US primed the world for alternative facts to being equal weight.  

Can't wait for Putin to use a nuke and claim it was launched from NATO.

That's not how negotiating work. Endless presidents have weighed into the middle east whether neither nation acknowledges the existence of the other.

It is one thing not to acknowledge the independence of a country or not. It is other to not acknowledge your actions entirely. Russian claims they never attacked the Ukraine and it was all Western manipulation. Accepting any deal will admit basically they lied to the Russian people about this being a peacekeeping action against Ukraine aggression.  Accepting a deal to end the peacekeeping would be a sign of weakness as well, that Russia just allowed the Ukraine to steal territory from it.

Just GOP things...

Really wonder if the play by Putin is to launch a nuke, to set up a second Trump presidency. A nuke would push a US response, and force us into a very costly war. Trump could run on pulling us out of a costly conflict that does not involve the US by vowing to leave NATO and leave the war then likely win. Then he gets his justification to leave NATO, crippling them, leaving Putin in a far stronger spot than he is in now. Even if he were to lose, pressure would be on Biden to leave NATO from US taxpayers as well. All Putin would have to do is weather the storm while convincing the GOP to vote on ending any military conflict, as Congress can override treaties to end wars.

I still don't understand why Russia would take destroy their own pipeline first, when there are others supplying gas into Europe not from Russia.
Wouldn't you sabotage the other pipelines first? I mean if you are going to get blamed anyway.

Because they knew that people like Tucker would report that the US did it, and they could sell the conscription to their people by showing US media saying that the US destroyed the pipeline.

Oct 3, 2022 3:00:00 GMT c said:

Because they knew that people like Tucker would report that the US did it, and they could sell the conscription to their people by showing US media saying that the US destroyed the pipeline.

Still doesn't make a lot of sense, because there is no reason for the USA to destroy a pipeline delivering gas to it's allies.
It's a tough sell.

It is being sold as to take money away from Russia with the intention of selling our allies our own gas, one of our strongest exports globally.

Reports are if Russia launches a nuke, NATO action will depend on the US. If the US does not lead action, NATO may let it happen. Will be a hard sell to America to go to war with China over a European war, and Congress can force the end of a war if they can beat a filibuster. Then again they can declare a war by beating a filibuster, and may. All depends on how well paid both parties are by the defense machine.

Biden already promised a response, but will not openly commit to that being war.

So far, no progress being made by the great dealmaker on a peace treaty.  

Russia also accused the US of violating the peace in outer space treaty with the Starlink sats being given to the Ukraine, and says they may start to shoot them out of orbit.

Be VERY interesting if he does if that is considered an act of war or not against the US.

Russia just approved the new borders. They will likely be withdrawing their forces to them. They include the annexed regions. The plan now is to move to a defensive war, and go back to what they originally claimed, that they are repealing an illegal invasion.

Elon tried to make peace between Ukraine and Russia today with this simple proposal, Russia gets all they want, and Ukraine gets nothing.

Ukraine did informally respond:

Oct 3, 2022 22:26:33 GMT c said:

Elon tried to make peace between Ukraine and Russia today with this simple proposal, Russia gets all they want, and Ukraine gets nothing.

Ukraine did informally respond:

I liked Musk's proposal with everything except Ukraine remaining neutral.
Any redrawing of the borders should be based on Ukraine joining Nato so that any agreement is enforceable.

Probably I am a bit like Musk as far as pragmatism is concerned.
I don't see a great need for the world to proceed to a Nuclear Armageddon in the interest of some Russian speaking farmers.
If the genuine will of the people is to be part of Russia, I say let them.
Let the referendum be: free, fair and impartial and abide by the result.

This is a solution that is ugly for everyone but will probably hold, as it has between North and South Korea.

Even with all of those caveats I find it unlikely that Putin would allow for free and fair elections in the occupied territories.

The world sat on it's hands when Israel illegally siezed the Golan heights and Jerusalem, so I don't see why we feel we have a moral obligation to treat this differently.

When Putin took the Crimea people warned it would not stop there, he would try to take everything to the Dnieper. Give Putin these oblasts, why would he not just repeated this a third time and take the rest of what he wants?

Also give Russia what they want now, this is twice Putin took territory without paying for it. Why should they just stop expanding like this since the world is making it extremely profitable for them to do so? With these areas Putin gets a massive manufacturing hub. Next jump will give him tons of natural resources for trade. Why should Russia stop expansion if it is so profitable and threatening nuclear war is all it takes for the world to let them do whatever they want?

Russia should be allowed to take the rebelling regions only with sanctions to pay for the cost of the war, and the territory taken paid yearly for 50 or so years along with a treaty that prevents interference from Ukraine joining NATO.  

Oct 3, 2022 23:52:17 GMT c said:

When Putin took the Crimea people warned it would not stop there, he would try to take everything to the Dnieper. Give Putin these oblasts, why would he not just repeated this a third time and take the rest of what he wants?

Also give Russia what they want now, this is twice Putin took territory without paying for it. Why should they just stop expanding like this since the world is making it extremely profitable for them to do so? With these areas Putin gets a massive manufacturing hub. Next jump will give him tons of natural resources for trade. Why should Russia stop expansion if it is so profitable and threatening nuclear war is all it takes for the world to let them do whatever they want?

Russia should be allowed to take the rebelling regions only with sanctions to pay for the cost of the war, and the territory taken paid yearly for 50 or so years along with a treaty that prevents interference from Ukraine joining NATO.  

Should Israel pay Syria and Palestine for the land it illegally grabbed?
My point is that when the West is inconsistent, it loses credibility.

I also stated that any new borders should be signed on the proviso that all Russia's neighbors are free to enter NATO without reprisals.
If Putin would not agree to the fair supervised referendum and the NATO clauses, it is an obvious sign that he is planning on further aggression.

It is a smart statesman that is able to push him to publicly admitting those facts.
There is no dialog with the West, so Putin cannot be exposed to his own people as an aggressor refusing sensible compromise.

Every second we spend attempting to engage with Russia now is worth 100 years post any nuclear action that may happen.
I have heard ZERO from any statesman about the red line of nuclear weapons.
This isn't a political hate thread, but Truss and Biden have been silent... While funneling billions of dollars to Ukraine... I just don't understand the strategy.

Syria / Israel conflict started from the failure of the 1949 Armistice Agreements to define a border and instead defined a demarcation line, with different agreements saying that the line meant different things. So different situation as there was ambiguity in the treaty.

The Russian Ukraine line was very clear.

Give Putin what he wants, it just encourages him to threaten nuclear war more in the future since he will see how effective it is.

///

Musk getting dunked hard by world leaders and diplomats on twitter for his tweet.

Putin activated a nuclear sub. Primary weapon is a the Status-6 Oceanic Multipurpose System torpedo equipped with a cobalt bomb. When used it, in theory, creates a highly radioactive tidal wave up to 1600 feet tall. This is one of the Russian doomsday weapons.

Belief is he will launch a non-nuclear version to show it works. It is not currently believed he has this in full operational capacity right now though.

Also this is a second strike weapon. Using it as a first strike would mean the US nukes Russia off the map and deals with the fallout later. In theory something like this could destroy the British Isles or the US Coasts entirely, making them uninhabitable for generations.  That said some experts are saying the killer wave will not manifest and it will just be a minor sea increase, and the ocean will spread the radioactive fallout of the dirty bomb.  Damage, according to the experts, would be limited to perhaps one city and the ocean around it.

Info on the weapon.  

www.euronews.com/next/2022/05/04/what-is-russia-s-poseidon-nuclear-drone-and-could-it-wipe-out-the-uk-in-a-radioactive-tsun

That also brings up a very good point, given the state of most of Putin's weapons, should he use a nuke, there is not guarantee it will even work. Some of the depot explosions were said to possible be his own long range artillery exploding and current soldiers are getting rusted AK's. Putin is not really dealing in top shelf stuff here. A lot of the tech is 50 years old and he is just cleaning out the closets basically.

His subs are still top tier, but we have no idea if the warheads in them are or not and Putin frequently boast of tech decades before it is ready for use.

Also makes me wonder if US should just use black flag tactics and drop the 11 nuclear armed subs Russia does have as that is there only real threat. Well provided that Trump did not straight tell Putin how we track them.

Oct 4, 2022 9:22:12 GMT c said:

Putin frequently boast of tech decades before it is ready for use.

Misread Putin as Musk there.

Hum Fox News during day time programming wants to make it VERY CLEAR that Putin blew up the pipeline not Biden. Got to love when they push back hard about the deceitful things said ON THEIR OWN FUCKING NETWORK.

News for the day is Putin claims any action to retake the annexed regions of the Ukraine will be met with extreme force. Rumors are he is in a bunker in Siberia and his chief staff and family have notice to be ready to evac at a moment's notice. He is preparing for a nuclear strike. Continued attempts to take the annexed regions will likely see him detonate a nuke over the Black Sea. It would allow him to use a nuke, but not necessarily force a response from NATO. Following this will be a second warning in a low yield strike against forces attacking an annexed region.

Rumor also are Putin's mind is going and he is in the bunker with like witch doctors at this point trying to keep him alive. So may be a madman with nukes reality very soon.

I guess you could say..

He's Putin on the Ritz...


Haha sorry

The fact that we are flirting with nuclear war over Russian speaking farmers in a shit hole part of the world is baffling to me.

The more I think about it, the more Musk's proposal with Ukraine joining Nato seems like the only off ramp.
This is the part everyone is forgetting, we need an off ramp.
We have the collective worst crop of world leaders in living memory.
I cannot think of a single one, "I would trust to organise a root in a brothel" to borrow from the quality Australian vernacular.

If Ukraine joins NATO we are at war with Russia. Russia actively holds several areas of the Ukraine. Same end result happens.

There will be no off ramp since you cannot punish Putin. He is a dying man who does not care about what happens to the Russian people. Cannot negotiate with him either since he uses alternative facts. He never invaded the Ukraine, this entire conflict took place in Russia and the attacks on the Ukraine were the Ukraine people engaging in false flag operation is the official stance. And cannot use force as China is using this to harm everyone critical of China at the same time.

Easy to tweet solutions or claim you will solve the conflict, far harder to actually do anything. Putin is dying in a bunker with witch doctors so no speaking with him. Rest of the Russia cannot really act without his approval or they fall out of a window.