Don’t know that I’d call him elite. That’s an incredible stretch to day the least.

Career 63% wins which puts him around the same company as a Mike Martz or Mike McCarthy along with some other more solid names like Cowher or Arians.

Then you combine that with being a whopping 9-8 in the playoffs which again places him with the likes of McCarthy, John Fox and Chuck Pagano.

He’s Mike McCarthy with a better reputation. Their resumes (including one Super Bowl) are almost identical. And Fat Mac would and should never fetch a 1st round pick.

I mean if you want to bring up win percentage he's only just behind Reid and Tomlin among actives.

And the Mike McCarthy comparison shows that the stats don't tell the whole story, because sure they are very similar on paper, but his "better reputation" isn't a figment. I would have thought you'd agree more than anyone that McCarthy really never did anything that stood out to maximise the Packers (and Rodgers was immediately revitalised when he left) while Payton was always able to eke out wins almost by himself with moments of magic like the Super Bowl onside kick, or by his offensive prowess carrying historically bad defences to .500 records.

Feb 1, 2023 16:57:42 GMT Blindy said:

Feb 1, 2023 16:52:52 GMT UT said:

Insane compensation for Payton too. I mean what makes him so special that he should fetch a 1st and 2nd round pick? He’s had plenty of shortcomings in the league through the years.

Making 17-20 mill per year as well, that makes Jon Gruden's contract look like chump change from a AAY perspective. 

Got that Walmart money

Plus he helped turn a disaster of an organization fresh off Katrina into a Super Bowl champion and constant contender. I know he benefitted by getting Brees but he deserves all of the praise he gets. Whether he duplicates that with Denver I don’t know.

Feb 1, 2023 23:38:52 GMT @admin said:

I mean if you want to bring up win percentage he's only just behind Reid and Tomlin among actives.

And the Mike McCarthy comparison shows that the stats don't tell the whole story, because sure they are very similar on paper, but his "better reputation" isn't a figment. I would have thought you'd agree more than anyone that McCarthy really never did anything that stood out to maximise the Packers (and Rodgers was immediately revitalised when he left) while Payton was always able to eke out wins almost by himself with moments of magic like the Super Bowl onside kick, or by his offensive prowess carrying historically bad defences to .500 records.

McCarthy when he first came to the Packers actually had a fresh offense and the right approach to the game, his failure to adapt and grasp in game adjustments is another story but he wasn’t always a complete slob.

The comparisons generally only continue as you brought up defenses being historically bad and being carried by the offense. Also didn’t hurt they both had elite quarterbacks through the majority of their career.

I’m not going to argue McCarthy being a flat out better coach , I think Payton is a good coach but the idea he is amongst the “elite” and deserving of two top picks is a completely different discussion when he’s floating around above average for his career.

Also I wouldn’t say Rodgers was immediately revitalized when Fat Mac left, it took a full year and the Jordan Love pick for Rodgers to become Rodgers again.

Floating around average just seems like an absurd way to put it. He had 9 seasons out of 15 winning 10 games and never won less than 7. He's borderline HOF at this point and even a moderately successful run with Denver probably locks that up as he gets into the top 10/15 for wins.

9-8 playoff record in 16 seasons for a franchise that previously had a 1-5 playoff record in their nearly 40 year history at that point. And they’ve immediately lost relevance the second he left.

I don’t know if he’s worth a first round pick but the Broncos are in desperate win now mode with a QB they’ve traded tons of assets for and committed a boat load of money to. Might as well see if Payton can work his magic with Wilson.

I’m just happy something positive happened to the Saints for once. That only lasted a day because both our DCs are now gone while we’ve made no chances to our offensive staff. Wonderful.

Feb 2, 2023 0:12:05 GMT @theshow said:

Plus he helped turn a disaster of an organization fresh off Katrina into a Super Bowl champion and constant contender. I know he benefitted by getting Brees but he deserves all of the praise he gets. Whether he duplicates that with Denver I don’t know.

Feel like that good will got done by allowing Gregg Williams to conduct bountygate and not stopping that before that actually became a thing. 

Feb 2, 2023 1:18:28 GMT Blindy said:

Feb 2, 2023 0:12:05 GMT @theshow said:

Plus he helped turn a disaster of an organization fresh off Katrina into a Super Bowl champion and constant contender. I know he benefitted by getting Brees but he deserves all of the praise he gets. Whether he duplicates that with Denver I don’t know.

Feel like that good will got done by allowing Gregg Williams to conduct bountygate and not stopping that before that actually became a thing. 

Apparently not considering the Broncos just traded a first and second round pick for him.

I doubt anyone in the league still cares about Bountygate, if they ever really did to begin with.

The Saints relevance point post-Payton is an interesting one though, I think you can make a strong argument that they were the least interesting team in the league this season. Apart from Chris Olave being even better than advertised, the only other notable thing that happened was that they were shutout on offence and while their defence pitched a shutout, and were therefore involved in half the goose eggs across the league.

Feb 1, 2023 23:38:52 GMT @admin said:

I mean if you want to bring up win percentage he's only just behind Reid and Tomlin among actives.

And the Mike McCarthy comparison shows that the stats don't tell the whole story, because sure they are very similar on paper, but his "better reputation" isn't a figment. I would have thought you'd agree more than anyone that McCarthy really never did anything that stood out to maximise the Packers (and Rodgers was immediately revitalised when he left) while Payton was always able to eke out wins almost by himself with moments of magic like the Super Bowl onside kick, or by his offensive prowess carrying historically bad defences to .500 records.

I’m not really sure what argument there is that he eked out wins almost by himself, given he spent almost his entire time in New Orleans blessed with one of the five best statistical QB’s of all time. Yes he called an onside kick one time in the Super Bowl, which was impressive. It also was almost certainly not his call alone. And a head coach overcoming a shitty defense ignores what role a head coach has in prioritizing defense in staffing, roster construction, etc.

I think he has branded himself better than any coach on the market and I understand why Denver is paying a premium for the name. But I don’t know that he’s going to be so much better than other options that it was worth giving up two of the few valuable picks the franchise has left. Maybe Brees was good because of him, but I also think there’s a not insignificant chance he was inflated by Brees.

I know it’s a small sample size but he did go 4-0 with Teddy Bridgewater and 3-1 with Taysom Hill at QB when Brees was injured in the 2019 and 2020 seasons. We also started 2021 5-2 with Jamies having arguably his greatest season before tearing his ACL. Still ended up finishing 9-8 with Trevor Semian, Taysom, and Ian Book sharing starts among a slew of other injuries. It did help that we were able to rely on our rebuilt defense in a lot of those games.

Had we not had an all time draft in 2017 that reinvigorated the team, he would’ve been gone after that season and probably coaching the Cowboys right now.

Feb 2, 2023 2:50:15 GMT mikec said:

I’m not really sure what argument there is that he eked out wins almost by himself, given he spent almost his entire time in New Orleans blessed with one of the five best statistical QB’s of all time. Yes he called an onside kick one time in the Super Bowl, which was impressive. It also was almost certainly not his call alone. And a head coach overcoming a shitty defense ignores what role a head coach has in prioritizing defense in staffing, roster construction, etc.

I think he has branded himself better than any coach on the market and I understand why Denver is paying a premium for the name. But I don’t know that he’s going to be so much better than other options that it was worth giving up two of the few valuable picks the franchise has left. Maybe Brees was good because of him, but I also think there’s a not insignificant chance he was inflated by Brees.

If you want some stats to back it up he ranks third (behind Belichick and Reid) among coaches in the last decade for wins over expected per PFF. And if you look at team EPA per play his team consistently outperformed expectations - which is particularly impressive considering his progressive improvement of the franchise that @theshow has been mentioning:



I don't disagree that he should shoulder some of the personnel blame for New Orleans having a bad defence for stretches, but my reason for raising it was largely because Denver are (as good as) set on that side of the ball and just need someone to create a functional offence.

I think the reality for the Broncos is they had to pay for credibility after last season. They made an awful hire for a dumb reason, then made a bigger mess by bringing in Russ to set the expectation that they were ready to contend. They almost had to bag the best name out there.

Feb 2, 2023 13:00:28 GMT mikec said:

I think the reality for the Broncos is they had to pay for credibility after last season. They made an awful hire for a dumb reason, then made a bigger mess by bringing in Russ to set the expectation that they were ready to contend. They almost had to bag the best name out there.

See now this makes more sense. If you’re paying for the PR then I guess - but paying for strictly coaching resume then I don’t think any coach outside of maybe Reid or Belichek are worth that.

Feb 2, 2023 1:34:38 GMT @theshow said:

Feb 2, 2023 1:18:28 GMT Blindy said:

Feel like that good will got done by allowing Gregg Williams to conduct bountygate and not stopping that before that actually became a thing. 

Apparently not considering the Broncos just traded a first and second round pick for him.

From a legacy standpoint, this will matter. From a win now standpoint, they see big name coach and wanted to get someone proven even if it costs a crap ton of money. New ownership wanted to make a mega splash. Could have put a stop to what Williams was doing but turned a blind eye and allowed guys to get hurt more senselessly than they should despite playing in a violent sport. 

Then again I am someone who never has forgotten about what Tom Brady and Bill Belichick did to cheat the system so that's maybe on me. 

I was thinking about the Reid takeover in KC, where he flipped the franchise in one year and if Payton could do something similar and I just dont know how much flexibility the Broncos have to flip the roster the way an established coach likes to do to get their guys. That team had a full compliment of picks (but in a terrible draft, so they only got Eric Fisher and Travis Kelce as long term pieces), traded for Alex Smith, and the team was very aggressive in free agency.

Sean Payton might’ve played in 2 more Super Bowls if Diggs didn’t make the miracle catch and if the referees called the pass interference on the Rams. Two of his playoff losses were both in extreme bullshit fashion.

To play devils advocate, they also lost to the Seahawks in the playoffs that season who came in with a losing record but that was Beast Mode.

Cowboys drop Kellen Moore and add Brian Schottenheimer as the new offensive coordinator.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mike McCarthy and Brian Schottenheimer running an offense together, :rofl: :rofl:

Amazing how this man continues to get jobs solely off his last name. He was terrible 15 years ago and is still getting the keys to an offense.

This is great but I would not fully blame Sanchez for his demise, he had no calling in the offense ran by Schottenheimer throughout the few years they were together. He was terrible with Pennington and Favre as well, he is just that bad. 

Feb 2, 2023 3:12:38 GMT @admin said:

because Denver are (as good as) set on that side of the ball and just need someone to create a functional offence.

A slight spanner in the works here as Ejiro Evero has left to take the Carolina DC job. The Panthers are having a great offseason so far, what they've done so far puts them as my early favourites to win the NFC South next season. If they are able to get in position and hit on a QB in the draft then look out Da Gr8t I Is

There's not any new news there, they are just going off the fact that Lamar turned down a contract that was worth about $100 million less than Watson's prior to the season. If Baltimore was balking at paying him a fully guaranteed contract at that stage, it's highly unlikely they're going to drastically change their tune after Lamar was injured and lost for the stretch run for the second straight season.

If there has really been no movement between the two sides, I think the end result will be a tag and trade, likely to one of the NFC South teams like Carolina or Atlanta who we know were prepared to match the Browns contract offer for Watson.

Feb 4, 2023 21:14:37 GMT Blindy said:

Cowboys drop Kellen Moore and add Brian Schottenheimer as the new offensive coordinator.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mike McCarthy and Brian Schottenheimer running an offense together,

Amazing how this man continues to get jobs solely off his last name. He was terrible 15 years ago and is still getting the keys to an offense.

This is great but I would not fully blame Sanchez for his demise, he had no calling in the offense ran by Schottenheimer throughout the few years they were together. He was terrible with Pennington and Favre as well, he is just that bad. 

As a long time Cowboy hater I love this hire.

Big W for the Vikings getting Flores for their DC. Big L for the Saints getting Joe Woods. Oof @theshow

Shocked Flores didn't wait to see if the Cards would call him, wondering if he didn't like his chances or Minnesota gave him an deadline to make a choice and he went with a sure things.

Means 2 ex/current Giant guys are up for the running. Bengals DC Lou Anarumo and Giants OC Mike Kafka are the remaining two. Kafka's chances go from 33% to 50%, how we feeling @admin ?

And yeah Joe Woods getting another gig even if it's really Dennis Allen overseeing the defense is something else. He was awful in Cleveland. Guess no Clowney to NO. 

Let the tanking for Caleb Williams/Drake Maye begin!

Hopefully we bring in an offensive minded coach next year after we fire Dennis the Menace.

I sure do enjoy watching proven and capable DCs going everywhere and the Packers just being completely okay with the Neanderthal that is Joe Barry.

Looks like Steve Wilks will become the new 49ers defensive coordinator I like the hiring and I’m glad Kris Kocurek the current Niners Dline coach turn down the Texans job for the defensive coordinator, and wants to stay with the Niners. I was worried that DR want to take him with him when he take the job.

Congratulations to Steve Wilks on his head coach appointment in two years.

Feb 7, 2023 21:04:00 GMT @admin said:

Congratulations to Steve Wilks on his head coach appointment in two years.

That is probably likely going to happen rinse, repeat .