Apr 22, 2024 6:04:46 GMT c said:

That statistics does not separate from pre and post transition, that is lifetime. We find post transition the people who still want to kill themselves drops enough to justify the extremity of the treatment. Do nothing here, you will just see those high rates become unchangeable baselines as well. Try to convert the kids out of it, and they only increase from there. Sole way we found to treat dysphoria to allow transitions.

Gender is a social construct and it is easily changed. Biological sex cannot be changed. And that is what they want, to socially be the opposite gender. And many clearly can change completely socially as there are a lot of people no one realizes are trans until they come out.

And we talk a lot about all these kids exposed to this dangerous idea, but only 1-2% percent of kids identify as trans. If dysphoria was socially transmitted as many claim this number would be growing as trans awareness spread. But it is not, this is the range it has always been. Most of the rise in what people claim are trans kids are non-binary kids who just disagree with the concept of gender norms. These kids do not seek chemical or surgical interventions though, nor are considered dysphoric.  They basically are like crossdressers of the older eras.

I didn't realise we were just making stuff up.

If Gender is a changeable social construct, then why are people seeking to have their sex reassigned through surgery?

Apr 22, 2024 6:06:16 GMT c said:

Why does every major medical group disagree then?

The mental illness is well studied now as gender dysphoria, but many want to claim all mental health researchers are wrong, and pundits know the science better.

"Every"?


www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/children-to-stop-getting-puberty-blockers-at-gender-identity-clinics-says-nhs-england

It is gender reassignment surgery not sex reassignment surgery.

Gender: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

Apr 22, 2024 6:07:44 GMT iNCY said:

Apr 22, 2024 6:06:16 GMT c said:

Why does every major medical group disagree then?

The mental illness is well studied now as gender dysphoria, but many want to claim all mental health researchers are wrong, and pundits know the science better.

"Every"?


www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/children-to-stop-getting-puberty-blockers-at-gender-identity-clinics-says-nhs-england

Where does it say they are against transitioning?  That was the not what the Cass report was about.  They are against puberty blockers for minors.  Only 15% of trans minors request them now as it is, and most are denied.  Like I said though, this is an area that policy is needed for, but is not getting done because the debate remains stuck in the should transitioning itself be outlawed or not, and does not get to what are the best policies for transitioning.

Also the research that decision was based on was deeply, deeply flawed and it is not expected this decision will last.  Cass's inclusion criteria raised a ton of red flags as it was based on what he personally considered good or bad research, nor did he present the findings at different quality thresholds.  This is not how a systematic review is done.  You review everything first, then discussed possible subsets and you should strive for it being without bias.

But this is all a whole lot about nothing.  In the UK less than 100 people were taking puberty blockers for dysphoria per that article.  In a population of 67 million.

Apr 22, 2024 6:08:53 GMT c said:

It is gender reassignment surgery not sex reassignment surgery.

Gender: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

That's a logically inconsistent statement.
People are having operations to match their biological sex organs to their supposed gender.

If what you are saying is correct, it would nothing to do with someones genitals if gender was independent of sex.

PS. Maher is a registered Democrat and donated a million dollars to Obama's campaign.

Apr 21, 2024 20:33:32 GMT c said:

Apr 21, 2024 20:13:59 GMT KJ said:

As I (I think) the only poster here that played college football on a scholarship, I can say c’s assessment is bullshit.

And I was on Division 47 of APA where recruitment patterns were studied.

Are you an actual psychologist? Serious question. 

Not anymore. Was an experimental psychologist with a focus on research methodology and cognitive performance in human and computer interactions. Did the masters, but had to walk away before the PhD conversion because my health tanked hard.  Scrapped everything when I walked away, including the book I was doing and game I was designing.

Was a member of Division 47 - sports psychology, 15 - educational psychology, 5 - research methods, and 46 - media psychology. Stopped paying dues when I had to walk away as once you are not considered a student, dues skyrocket. Still keep up with the methods crew and some of the sports crew as they are a fun lot but dropped most contact with the rest.

I do peer review for Division 15 and 46 journals from time to time still though. The methodology I specialized in is pretty rare (quantization of qualitative data) with only a few dozen or so of us fully embracing it and think I am the only one that actually happily reviews stuff in a timely manner.

Well there you have it.

Not sure what you are getting at. 

But you do not have to take my word for it, APA released a statement on this all just two months back in anticipation of the release of the Cass report.

www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender-nonbinary-inclusive-care.pdf

Which reaffirmed their prior guidelines for care.

www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf

Did I not like your post?

It was an acknowledgement.

My bad, sorry mate.

What do those words all mean...

Interesting, appears Hillary Cass supports puberty blockers and believes 15 is often too late to starting prescribing them.  Some are thinking they may recant the Cass Report entirely based on the way it is being misused by political organizations.  

In her interview she was making a case that trans care needs to be done on a case by case basis, with blockers only starting if need presents and not as the result of blanket one size fits all policy, which is far, far from how the results of her report are being discussed.

www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt

But Cass either corrects the misinformation being spread about her recommendations, many of which were not wrong in academia context, but are being used wrong outside it, or becomes an academic pariah.  

Apr 22, 2024 20:33:26 GMT @ness said:

What do those words all mean...

Basically NATH45 wants you to stand up and ACKNOWLEDGE HIM!

Apr 22, 2024 21:05:56 GMT c said:

Interesting, appears Hillary Cass supports puberty blockers and believes 15 is often too late to starting prescribing them.  Some are thinking they may recant the Cass Report entirely based on the way it is being misused by political organizations.  

In her interview she was making a case that trans care needs to be done on a case by case basis, with blockers only starting if need presents and not as the result of blanket one size fits all policy, which is far, far from how the results of her report are being discussed.

www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt

But Cass either corrects the misinformation being spread about her recommendations, many of which were not wrong in academia context, but are being used wrong outside it, or becomes an academic pariah.  

It is illegal in my state to provide anything but gender confirming care.
Even though statistically, it is a far better outcome if you try to realign someone's identity with their body, it is illegal to do so.
That is the very definition of insanity.

Gender reassignment surgery and puberty blockers should be the last line of defense, not a trendy thing to do.

Apr 23, 2024 1:23:47 GMT KING KID said:

Apr 22, 2024 20:33:26 GMT @ness said:

What do those words all mean...

Basically NATH45 wants you to stand up and ACKNOWLEDGE HIM!

c referenced working for APA, it peaked my interest and he confirmed he worked as a psychologist.

I then gave him a sort of nod of approval.

It's odd, and off brand for sure. So, to balance that out...

AEW sucks!

Apr 23, 2024 1:41:56 GMT NATH45 said:

Apr 23, 2024 1:23:47 GMT KING KID said:

Basically NATH45 wants you to stand up and ACKNOWLEDGE HIM!

c referenced working for APA, it peaked my interest and he confirmed he worked as a psychologist.

I then gave him a sort of nod of approval.

It's odd, and off brand for sure. So, to balance that out...

AEW sucks!

I’d love to review his recruitment work, because it sounds like someone looking to validate a POV rather than pure scientific exploration.

There’s zero doubt in my mind the explosion in general dysphoria is mass hysteria akin to “cutting” in the late-90s. There’s massive social and cultural pressure for acceptance, and it’s an easy way for unpopular kids to get noticed and praised.

Apr 23, 2024 1:50:15 GMT KJ said:

Apr 23, 2024 1:41:56 GMT NATH45 said:

c referenced working for APA, it peaked my interest and he confirmed he worked as a psychologist.

I then gave him a sort of nod of approval.

It's odd, and off brand for sure. So, to balance that out...

AEW sucks!

I’d love to review his recruitment work, because it sounds like someone looking to validate a POV rather than pure scientific exploration.

Where'd you get that idea

Apr 23, 2024 1:53:24 GMT NATH45 said:

Apr 23, 2024 1:50:15 GMT KJ said:

I’d love to review his recruitment work, because it sounds like someone looking to validate a POV rather than pure scientific exploration.

Where'd you get that idea

Peer-reviewed research.

Apr 23, 2024 1:51:39 GMT KJ said:

There’s zero doubt in my mind the explosion in general dysphoria is mass hysteria akin to “cutting” in the late-90s. There’s massive social and cultural pressure for acceptance, and it’s an easy way for unpopular kids to get noticed and praised.

The increase in people identifying as Trans likely has something to do with society becoming a lot more tolerant than in the past. A lot of people would have lived in the closest as they say, or were throught to be gay or lesbian.

That's the nuts and bolts.

But the definition or the scope has broadened so far it's impossible to keep up. And it is often difficult to remain respectful.

At some point many pass rational thinking in their making up of definitions, for example or identifying as an animal, or swapping their gender with the seasons or the weather or on a wim, etc. It's less gender dysphoria at that point and more so another untreated mental illness being masqueraded as the former.

Apr 23, 2024 1:54:18 GMT KJ said:

Apr 23, 2024 1:53:24 GMT NATH45 said:

Where'd you get that idea

Peer-reviewed research.

Not his mentor's book?

Main thing we need now is a cohort study and the type of study we need is not cheap at all. Ideally will want to follow a million kids from ages 5 until they are 50. Track how many question their gender, how many consider themselves trans, how many seek treatment, what treatment and if they express regret. Track their wellbeing yearly. This is the gold standard of study that Cass wanted to see and we are not doing yet as cohort studies take millions in funding. We have cohort studies going on but not ones that are actively measuring general well being and transitioning together with large samples. Get one or two if you lucky but need all three. These studies generally release yearly updates though so we will get a flow of information from them, like we see with the Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development study or the National Child Development.

As for people transitioning for attention that is why people are pushing for standard guidelines with things like socially transitioning for a year while under regular care of a licensed professional with routine biweekly or monthly meetings before any further options are even considered.

What we seen though is transitioning kids have fixed gender identities. They absolutely see themselves as the other sex and the differences appear on fMRIs. Almost certain we will learn that dysphoria is the result of the wrong brain wiring during sex differentiation in fetal development. They should be transitioning under professional supervision. And we should be working hard to sort them out from people who mere are gender fluid or believe they are agender as those are not disorders that should lead to treatment at all. But we seem to be hellbent on damning the former group to protect the people without actual disorders.

Apr 23, 2024 2:19:44 GMT NATH45 said:

And it is often difficult to remain respectful.

It really isn't. A good starting point would be to stop calling people mentally ill when you've really got no idea about what they are going through, and endlessly using words like common sense and logic about a topic that is clearly complicated and impossible to reduce to simplicities.

Apr 23, 2024 2:19:44 GMT NATH45 said:

Apr 23, 2024 1:51:39 GMT KJ said:

There’s zero doubt in my mind the explosion in general dysphoria is mass hysteria akin to “cutting” in the late-90s. There’s massive social and cultural pressure for acceptance, and it’s an easy way for unpopular kids to get noticed and praised.

The increase in people identifying as Trans likely has something to do with society becoming a lot more tolerant than in the past. A lot of people would have lived in the closest as they say, or were throught to be gay or lesbian.

That's the nuts and bolts.

But the definition or the scope has broadened so far it's impossible to keep up. And it is often difficult to remain respectful.

At some point many pass rational thinking in their making up of definitions, for example or identifying as an animal, or swapping their gender with the seasons or the weather or on a wim, etc. It's less gender dysphoria at that point and more so another untreated mental illness being masqueraded as the former.

I suspect moving forward we will see things like drag and bull dykes become a thing of the past.   

Definition of scope is my issue.  While I am all for supporting trans kids with transitioning, I am only for supporting dysphoric kids.  Hence the repeated push for the one year of social transitioning.  If a kid cannot socially be the opposite sex for one year straight, under supervision that is making sure they are dysphoric and not gendered confused or gender non-conforming, fluid, agender or whatever the newest gender trend is, then they should not get access to medications or treatment, and be counseled properly to not continue trans care.  No one wants to see kids who are not trans and merely are confused get treatment in professional circles.  

Also speaking of scope, the bans while everyone says are for children, are increasingly aimed at adults too.  And creeping towards banning things like cosmetic surgery and breast implants, two procedures now involved in trans healthcare.  Interesting though few talks about banning designer dicks.  Girl want a 9 inch girthy monster seems politicians are all for that.

Apr 23, 2024 2:28:56 GMT @admin said:

Apr 23, 2024 2:19:44 GMT NATH45 said:

And it is often difficult to remain respectful.

It really isn't. A good starting point would be to stop calling people mentally ill when you've really got no idea about what they are going through, and endlessly using words like common sense and logic about a topic that is clearly complicated and impossible to reduce to simplicities.

The grand irony is if people were respectful and accepting, it is unlikely dysphoria would require any treatment at all.  Guys could just dress as girls and be accepted without drugs or surgery.  But the same people who want to ban the surgery call them molestors for wanting to socially pass as the other gender, so they feel they need to go to these extremes to be accepted by society.

Apr 23, 2024 2:28:56 GMT @admin said:

Apr 23, 2024 2:19:44 GMT NATH45 said:

And it is often difficult to remain respectful.

It really isn't. A good starting point would be to stop calling people mentally ill when you've really got no idea about what they are going through, and endlessly using words like common sense and logic about a topic that is clearly complicated and impossible to reduce to simplicities.

Sorry, if someone wants to cut their leg off they are treated as mentally ill, it's called Body Integrity Disorder: edition.cnn.com/2020/05/07/health/body-integrity-dysphoria-wellness/index.html

If someone believes they are something that they are not, they have a mental issue.
Now if performing an operation to align their genitals with the picture they have in their mind helps them to stop self-harming then that is a satisfactory outcome.
To begin with the notion that someone experiencing dysphoria should have their delusion re-enforced is dangerous.
Probably akin to telling someone with anorexia that yes, they are fat.

I don't know how trangenderism got added to the LGB banner, when it has nothing to do with sexuality according to most.

Treat transgender people with gentleness and kindness 100%, but don't pretend they're not unwell, or that there is a simple solution to solve their dilemma. 

BiD is an emerging disorder, gender dysphoria is not. Likewise it is just a specific form of dysmorphia, a well studied condition.  And as that article states it is likely due to the brain having a wiring problems, which means you cannot fix it with transitional drugs or therapy.

Trans people got added to LGB because they were accepting of them when most were not. Also homosexuality is far higher in trans people than cis-people.

People want to treat them and make them well. People outside of psychological organizations insist however the methods that are shown to work at reducing distress over time should not be used. That is not treating them with kindness or getting them well. That is keeping them sick.

You also know that most trans people keep their genitals right? Like it is really feeling like people here are not aware of this. Only a minority do genital reconstruction as it is solely suggested as a final option when all other transitioning options have been used, and even then it is advised against.

Also dysphoria is not a delusion. To get to a dysphoria diagnosis you must first rule out delusions. Furthermore antipsychotics do not affect it. At point it was thought to be a delusion disorder but not the past 30 years.

Apr 23, 2024 3:16:47 GMT iNCY said:

Apr 23, 2024 2:28:56 GMT @admin said:

It really isn't. A good starting point would be to stop calling people mentally ill when you've really got no idea about what they are going through, and endlessly using words like common sense and logic about a topic that is clearly complicated and impossible to reduce to simplicities.

Sorry, if someone wants to cut their leg off they are treated as mentally ill, it's called Body Integrity Disorder: edition.cnn.com/2020/05/07/health/body-integrity-dysphoria-wellness/index.html

If someone believes they are something that they are not, they have a mental issue.
Now if performing an operation to align their genitals with the picture they have in their mind helps them to stop self-harming then that is a satisfactory outcome.
To begin with the notion that someone experiencing dysphoria should have their delusion re-enforced is dangerous.
Probably akin to telling someone with anorexia that yes, they are fat.

I don't know how trangenderism got added to the LGB banner, when it has nothing to do with sexuality according to most.

Treat transgender people with gentleness and kindness 100%, but don't pretend they're not unwell, or that there is a simple solution to solve their dilemma. 

Fucking cheers to this.

And NATH45 ... I don't believe the mass movement at a young age is tied to anything other than "acceptance." There's a reason autistic kids are drawn to this, and isn't as simple as "I'm a girl." There was a school in (I think) Florida that CNN covered where 35% of kids identified as trans or non-binary. That's not normal.

We can't even understand the long-term realities of this situation, it's so new. We have no idea how much of this is a phase vs. "reality" ... and we won't for years, if not decades.