Trans kids are very different from non-binary. No one is suggesting treating non-binary kids. And of the groups, for every trans kid, 4 are non-binary.  Hence again, a year of fixing them to traditional gender presentation of a single gender before treatment.  You know who hates that shit?  Non-binary and gender fluid kids.  This all is why we try to frame the shit as treating dysphoria.  Most guys in the drag scene are not likely actually trans.  A few def are, but most just are into the theatrical side of it all.  To be trans you need dysphoria.  And we only treat trans kids who show dysphoria.  Without, no one is going to spend money to simply put a kid on drugs.  In the US insurance will fight that shit, in other countries the state itself will fight paying for it.


Another point about that disorder, the common name for BiD is foreign limb syndrome, and many people who suffer from it, cannot control the limb either. It is believed to act on a purely subconscious level if it moves. For some there is no motor control of it at all.  Many who get it cut off, do so because it hinders walking or the hard grabs at things seemingly at random.  No one is cutting off a limb just because they do not want it.  They do it because it is massively fucking up their ability to function.

Apr 19, 2024 3:45:36 GMT iNCY said:

Apr 19, 2024 2:46:36 GMT Michinokudriver said:

Can't really start a discussion on this til we're all unambiguously on the same page.

Based off what Bill Maher said, what do you believe the solution to Sweden's problem should be?

How would you judge it?
If the numbers show that the vast majority of aggravated rapes are committed by African migrants, does that mean that the data is racist?

I would be very clear that anyone who arrives in another country as a refugee or for any other reason and then breaks the law of that country, they should be deported back to their own country, whether or not it is safe for that to happen for the individual concerned.
I am even more hardline than that, if someone under the age of 18 continues to break the law, deport them and their family.

There was this old thing about life-saving where the first rule is to not drown yourself because then you can't save anyone.
If we for well-intentioned reasons turn our countries into lawless hellholes we won't be able to save anyone.

This idea that all cultures can integrate together must have come from people who have never travelled anywhere in their lives.
You cannot take someone out of a war zone and drop them into a first world country and expect they will magically flourish.
Either don't bring them, or expend the money and time necessary to see them embedded into the society.

[dated by this point in the thread / what we're talking about now but still felt this deserved a mention and response anyways]

Sure, and I'd agree with that but that's not what Bill was implying. When he says the problem started when immigrants came in; immigrants and their Somali gangs, and the education level seems to have dropped when Somalian immigrants came in and  it would seem pretty clear to me he's stating the country would be better off without African immigrants and maybe they should all leave. But one of his syncophants would be all "but he didn't saaaaaayyyy those exact words, you assumed he thought that so it is you who is the racist here" which is generally why it becomes impossible to have a conversation with someone who won't say what they mean.

Somali gangs are an issue? Sure, address that. Ideally by however you'd address gang violence of any kind, whether foreign-born or native.

(for what it's worth we had the same issue re: childhood education and it did take a lot of money to put these kids through English as a Second Language classes to bring them up to speed, and I think miiiiiight have had bilingual math and science teachers to keep them up to date with the English-only kids while they also worked on learning another language. But like you said, you have to spend the time and the money to do it right)

For a lot of these issues it really is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Most of it is just pundits reading a news story on a complex issue and claiming there is a simple solution that not one wants to consider. Like with trans kids we have considered telling them they are fucked up and knock that talk of being the other sex off. And they killed themselves in record numbers. We electrocuted their brains until it destroyed their short-term memory and that did not help. We gave them insanely high doses of antipsychotics and benzos and that did not help. We did ages of psychotherapy in several domains and that did not help. Then 50 years ago we started to transition people, and finally we started to see some results.

Like the medical community been working on this shit for 100 years or so. Freud wrote about this stuff. Most people just never talked about this stuff publically, and if they transitioned did it privately then relocated entirely to start their lives over. Only when famous people started to transition and talk about it did the general world start to become aware of trans people. People keep suggesting there is a better solution out there while suggesting things we tied 50 plus years ago that failed. True trans people do not grow out of it, do not ever see themselves as the proper sex nor and the regrets people have are related to trying to transition and still not passing as the gender they desired to be. They do not go back to being well adjusted members of their own sex and continue to wish they could pass as the gender they want to be seen as.  They regret the transition did not make them into what they wanted to be.

Apr 22, 2024 5:46:24 GMT iNCY said:

edition.cnn.com/2023/06/28/health/transgender-suicide-risk/index.html

This is an interesting quote:

"Recent studies in the US show that 82% of people who identify as transgender said they considered killing themselves, and 40% have attempted suicide, with the highest numbers of suicides among trans youth."
Seems like being transgender is not associated in great mental health outcomes, yet we are evangelizing it as a valid lifestyle choice.
People CANNOT change their gender, they can mutilate their bodies to try and match their mental picture, but the truth is that a man can never actually be a woman or the other way around.

With the constant promotion of this transgender nonsense: www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teenagers-national-survey.html

We are now placing increasing numbers of children into situations where they will end up self harming or suicide.
We are telling people they can change their gender, but they can't.
It's a false promise that is leading to death.

A generation or two ago this would have been said about gay people. And hey, have they tried not being gay? Surely that would fix their mental health issues.

Being gay hasn't changed, but rather its acceptance in society. Your outlook seems less bleak when you're not beaten in the streets for simply being you, or having to hide who you are or risk being fired, or being told since you are attracted to someone of the same gender you must also be a pedophile groomer and therefore we should beat you in the streets.

I think that has more to do with trans youth contemplating suicide than bad wiring in the brains.

also I am sure c can better parse this than I can but

www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3#Sec19

Our results underline that the brain structure of [transgendered individual]s is similar to both, the brain structure of their perceived gender and biological sex. This implies that brain structure of [trans women] differs from both [cisgendered]-men and -women.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Their results, published in 2013, showed that even before treatment the brain structures of the trans people were more similar in some respects to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their natal gender. For example, the female-to-male subjects had relatively thin subcortical areas (these areas tend to be thinner in men than in women). Male-to-female subjects tended to have thinner cortical regions in the right hemisphere, which is characteristic of a female brain. (Such differences became more pronounced after treatment.)

but in fairness

They measured the responses of boys and girls with gender dysphoria to echolike sounds produced by the inner ear in response to a clicking noise. Boys with gender dysphoria responded more like typical females, who have a stronger response to these sounds. But girls with gender dysphoria also responded like typical females.

Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria. But given the variety of transgender people and the variation in the brains of men and women generally, it will be a long time, if ever, before a doctor can do a brain scan on a child and say, “Yes, this child is trans.”

so yes, brain scans would seem to indicate the hardware might be different upstairs and not just a phase or something you can talk someone out of. Doesn't apply to everyone, for sure, but definitely would apply to some.

and re: drag queen storytime

like sure, they're kinda weird but not necessarily harmful (or not more harmful than any random guy on the street might be). And I don't think they think they're sexy.

To be fair, there's a very good chance they're doing it in part for shock value and can't be too upset when you get the result you wanted. But it doesn't mean they're dangerous or trying to corrupt your kids (again, not more than any other rando).

Drag culture is weird. Most just like to perform. Which is why they read to kids. If you ever attended one, they do read overly dramatically, voicing all the characters and usually dressing up like one. Some memorize the book and performance beforehand. There is absolutely nothing sexual about it. Most drag shows are bears doing bad karaoke in women's clothes. Again it is a performance.

I mean these are the people that people believe are sexualizing children.  If anything they are dooming children to become theater kids.

I do find it funny all these people raging about drag queens, then Trump has drag queens at Mar-A-Lago and no one batting an eye at conservatives bringing their kids around them.

Also as much as people bag on me for not getting out much, think a lot of people here need to get out and actually interact with people more. Clearly few here had meaningful conversations with a trans person before if your perception of them is locked to right wing talking points. Like have you asked anyone why they think they are trans, about what the actual treatment they have or hope to get is, their thoughts on the whole gender stuff in youth and so on? If you merely get your information online you are not seeing the reality of the situation at all. And well, talking to the "non-binary" kids helps too. 

Apr 23, 2024 3:57:25 GMT KJ said:

Apr 23, 2024 3:16:47 GMT iNCY said:

Sorry, if someone wants to cut their leg off they are treated as mentally ill, it's called Body Integrity Disorder: edition.cnn.com/2020/05/07/health/body-integrity-dysphoria-wellness/index.html

If someone believes they are something that they are not, they have a mental issue.
Now if performing an operation to align their genitals with the picture they have in their mind helps them to stop self-harming then that is a satisfactory outcome.
To begin with the notion that someone experiencing dysphoria should have their delusion re-enforced is dangerous.
Probably akin to telling someone with anorexia that yes, they are fat.

I don't know how trangenderism got added to the LGB banner, when it has nothing to do with sexuality according to most.

Treat transgender people with gentleness and kindness 100%, but don't pretend they're not unwell, or that there is a simple solution to solve their dilemma. 

Fucking cheers to this.

I didn't necessarily need the lads coming to my defence, but there it is in bold. 

Apr 23, 2024 5:34:02 GMT c said:

Also as much as people bag on me for not getting out much, think a lot of people here need to get out and actually interact with people more. Clearly few here had meaningful conversations with a trans person before if your perception of them is locked to right wing talking points. Like have you asked anyone why they think they are trans, about what the actual treatment they have or hope to get is, their thoughts on the whole gender stuff in youth and so on? If you merely get your information online you are not seeing the reality of the situation at all. And well, talking to the "non-binary" kids helps too. 

Well yes I have. 

I know a number of people who are trans. All are good people, for the most and I enjoy their company, for the most. One over-shares and makes light of some deep-seeded emotional trauma that has resulted in a very sheltered childhood and hence some difficulties migrating into adulthood, but I digress. Two of them speak often about their detachment to traditional female gender roles and a disconnect with what one would associate a young woman growing up would be interested in, so you get a sense that this was day one sort of stuff, it's not new, and that they were feeling a particular way all of their life. 

The reality is, I don't care why they are trans. I care that they are happy... and more importantly, healthy. And that they've made the right decision for them. That's it. 

The point being, and as most people agree we love and support these guys, there is a difference between these guys experiencing gender dysphoria and someone repeatedly changing genders based on the seasons, or the weather outside today for that matter or identifying as an animal, or plant or a body of water, or the stars above, or combining 3 or 4 different genders and creating a new one.

There's been conversations for years linking mental health issues into this conversation - borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder for examples. One report I've seen noted that 58% trans patients in this particular study had at least one other psychiatric diagnosis, as compared to 12% in the control group. In addition to major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder, etc. I 100% agree, a lot of this can be attributed to years of isolation or being bullied or difficulties managing all of these emotions, but a lot of this can be manifesting all by itself, or some deep rooted trauma unrelated to their sex or gender that then itself becomes part of this conversation. 

The best way to help these kids is to address these issues first and then support them with whatever happens next. Any caring, sane and logical person understands this. As a parent, and I'm sure all the parents on here would do the same if they noticed some extreme changes in their child's emotional well being - they would seek help first, psychological help. Rather than simply affirming what their child is suddenly stating is their new reality. 

People that change genders back and forth are not trans. They are genderfluid or non-binary. Neither are mental disorders and neither require treatment. Trans healthcare is solely for people with dysphoria. They do not change their gender, it is always the opposite of their sex.

All paths to transitioning start with a psychological workup. And no psychologist as a first order will tell a kid after the first visit they are getting meds and surgery. Before any transitioning is talked about they will sort out they actually have dysphoria, and rule out other conditions that are far, far easier to treat. If that does not work, then the discussion of transitioning occurs with a focus solely on social transiting at first.

And this is what people are trying to ban. The medical professionals from getting involved. Parents regardless of the law can let their kids dress as the opposite gender. No one is trying to stop that. They are trying to limit what treatments a trained mental health professional can engage in. What we will get is a regression in treatment. Instead of allowing kids to simply dress like the opposite gender, we will give them high dose antipsychotics like we did in the 90's which have severe side effects ranging from uncontrollable shaking, weight gain of 20% of body mass on average which oftens triggers diabetes and metabolic syndrome, chronic fatigue and dizziness to utterly fucking up your heart. Long term use is also associated with liver failure. Almost every single drug in this case has a black box warning of some sort. For many you need to get regular blood checks to make sure your levels do not get toxic. This is what people are claiming is the safer alternative of treatment. Dig into them yourselves. The common ones are Risperidone, Quetiapine, Aripiprazole, Lamotrigine and Lithium. Every single one of these is associated with increased rates of suicides and I believe all had clinical trials with completed suicide as a side effect.

Puberty blockers, estrogen and testosterone we know are far safer because we routinely use all three. Estrogen in birth control and testosterone for men who want to feel more manly. Then there is leuprorelin which is recommended for any girl who starts puberty at 8 or 9. Even if is not medical need to do it, it is highly recommended as it will drop the likelihood they are sexually assaulted before they are a teenager greatly. We also use leuprorelin routine as a cancer treatment and for very period disorders. All three are in routine use without problems for cisgender people. There is no reason to believe they prove a unique danger to trans kids. And they are all FAR safer than trying to treat with antipsychotics.

Changing genders back and forth is a mental disorder.

Apr 23, 2024 3:16:47 GMT iNCY said:

Apr 23, 2024 2:28:56 GMT @admin said:

It really isn't. A good starting point would be to stop calling people mentally ill when you've really got no idea about what they are going through, and endlessly using words like common sense and logic about a topic that is clearly complicated and impossible to reduce to simplicities.

Sorry, if someone wants to cut their leg off they are treated as mentally ill, it's called Body Integrity Disorder: edition.cnn.com/2020/05/07/health/body-integrity-dysphoria-wellness/index.html

If someone believes they are something that they are not, they have a mental issue.
Now if performing an operation to align their genitals with the picture they have in their mind helps them to stop self-harming then that is a satisfactory outcome.
To begin with the notion that someone experiencing dysphoria should have their delusion re-enforced is dangerous.
Probably akin to telling someone with anorexia that yes, they are fat.

I don't know how trangenderism got added to the LGB banner, when it has nothing to do with sexuality according to most.

Treat transgender people with gentleness and kindness 100%, but don't pretend they're not unwell, or that there is a simple solution to solve their dilemma. 

Hey man! Facts are homophobic! 

I think we just hit the snooze button.

Apr 23, 2024 10:22:49 GMT KING KID said:

Changing genders back and forth is a mental disorder.

People who change their gender from male to female without dysphoria are no different from the jock who becomes a punk kid or the party girl who grows out the scene.  They merely change their social expression for the sake of changing their social expression.  

Canada Party responds for Bill Maher.

Apr 23, 2024 22:50:23 GMT c said:

Apr 23, 2024 10:22:49 GMT KING KID said:

Changing genders back and forth is a mental disorder.

People who change their gender from male to female without dysphoria are no different from the jock who becomes a punk kid or the party girl who grows out the scene.  They merely change their social expression for the sake of changing their social expression.  

An emo " its just a " phase in high school is a little different to completely changing your gender.

Apr 23, 2024 23:32:13 GMT NATH45 said:

Apr 23, 2024 22:50:23 GMT c said:

People who change their gender from male to female without dysphoria are no different from the jock who becomes a punk kid or the party girl who grows out the scene.  They merely change their social expression for the sake of changing their social expression.  

An emo " its just a " phase in high school is a little different to completely changing your gender.

 
Ok why is a girl who wears men's jeans, band t's and has a shaved head mentally ill?  In this case gender presentation is clearly changed but few would call that person mentally ill without dysphoria.  

Apr 23, 2024 23:38:05 GMT c said:

Apr 23, 2024 23:32:13 GMT NATH45 said:

An emo " its just a " phase in high school is a little different to completely changing your gender.

 
Ok why is a girl who wears men's jeans, band t's and has a shaved head mentally ill?  In this case gender presentation is clearly changed but few would call that person mentally ill without dysphoria.  

I didn't say it was.

I should have seen it coming - bait, for some pre-empted argument you've already had with yourself.

Most people changing their gender sans dysphoria are just changing how society perceives them. While you are likely referring to trans people, there is a major difference in why trans people do it, and why non-binary people do it. The non-binary kids do not show mental illness when they do it, as they are not internally perceiving themselves as the opposite sex, they just change their gender to appear as such.  Which is why few are arguing for the same treatment and protections we think trans people should have for non-binary people.  Catch a guy in the ladies locker room dressed as a girl with no documented dysphoria, most trans supporters will be totally fine introducing him to the showers in prison to get treated like the girl they are pretending to be.

Wearing some different clothes to fit in with a crowd is hardly the same as someone experiencing gender dysphoria.

The average human being isn't going to suffer any significant pain struggling and juggling the difficulties of being a jock and wanting to be a punk.. seriously.

If you want to put a ridiculous label on it, perhaps call it social dysphoria. You could... but it's stupid.

Not everyone who swaps genders are dysphoric though. That is what I was getting at. And these days, only a minority are when digging through the data. Sorting out things like who should be protected for having dysphoria they cannot control, and who is swapping genders due to something they can control will be very, very important and solve most of the what ifs concerns people have about trans people.

Take the guy in the girl's bathroom fear situation.  A dysphoric trans girl is not a threat if receiving puberty blockers for instance, as we used to use them for chemical castration on homosexuals.  They will have absolutely zero sexual desire.  A non-binary dude going however has none of those issues.  Something as simple as a trans treatment cards that state someone is under medical supervision and transitioning and increasing punishments for invasion of privacy for guys without cards can nullify most concerns here.  For schools make dress codes with the only exceptions being possessing said card that states you are under treatment.  Anyone not under care needs to come to school in the proper attire for their sex.  Fast way to end non-binary in schools for attention.  To make sure shit is accurate force yearly renewal of cards confirming continued treatment.  If worried about rashness of transitioning, create policy of a year observation period before social transitioning can be suggested to try different things.  We can protect trans kids, while not allowing exploitation of the processes by non-trans kids.

But we still are on all or nothing here fights, meaning meaningful lasting policy will not be created.  All prohibition will do is leave kids to DIY transitions in secret, in many cases without even parental knowledge.